TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

[godlameroso]

What advantage could you gain by running the compressor and turbine bearings at different speeds? The only way you could do it and be within the rules is to use a viscous coupling but creating a bearing capable of this would be a heck of an engineering feat.

[gruntguru]

That would still not be within the rules. The compressor and turbine must rotate at the same speed.

[godlameroso]

I thought it was the shaft that was not allowed to turn at different speeds, how can you measure how fast the impeller blades on the compressor or turbine are spinning? If the compressor and turbine impellers are different sizes they're already spinning at different speeds.

[ian_s]

the rules state the compressor and turbine must always rotate at the same angular velocity. size is not a factor there.

[Brian Coat]

This MGUH/turbo shaft rules discussion is of those themes which gets periodically revisited on this forum.

Anyone for a quick game of AFR/boost pressure tennis?

[frosty125]

5.1.6 Pressure charging may only be effected by the use of a sole single stage compressor linked to
a sole single stage exhaust turbine by a shaft assembly parallel to the engine crankshaft and
within 25mm of the car centre line. The shaft must be designed so as to ensure that the shaft
assembly, the compressor and the turbine always rotate about a common axis and at the
same angular velocity, an electrical motor generator (MGU-H) may be directly coupled to it.

[godlameroso]

I wonder if they could have a type of MGU-H that could somehow take advantage of this phenomenon https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvR9XtmxwLg, maybe as an energy efficient way to spool the turbo

[gruntguru]

Unlikely to be energy efficient since since only a fraction of energy added to the exhaust stream can be converted to mechanical energy in the turbo shaft. OTOH the MGUH converts electricity to mechanical energy in the turbo at greater than 90% efficiency.

OTOH that technology could well have application in enhancing the aerodynamics of an F1 car. Probably against the rules (active or powered aero?)

[NL_Fer]

I was thinking, could it be possible to introduce a non turbo option, next to the current V6t. To attract new manufacturers, who do not want to get involved with turbo technology.

How would a NA V8 engine, equiped with 1 or 2 TERS units in the exhaust perform in with the same 100kg/h fuel flow limit? And with TERS, i mean a turbine and generator, harvesting enery for the MGU-K. Maybe soms efficiency is lost, but the plumbing and weight will be lower too. Also cooling this PU will be much simpler and no intercooler is needed.

I believe that NA is not dead yet. Looking at how Hyundai en Mazda's latest generation non-turbo engines perform.

[wuzak]

I was thinking, could it be possible to introduce a non turbo option, next to the current V6t. To attract new manufacturers, who do not want to get involved with turbo technology.

How would a NA V8 engine, equiped with 1 or 2 TERS units in the exhaust perform in with the same 100kg/h fuel flow limit? And with TERS, i mean a turbine and generator, harvesting enery for the MGU-K. Maybe soms efficiency is lost, but the plumbing and weight will be lower too. Also cooling this PU will be much simpler and no intercooler is needed.

I believe that NA is not dead yet. Looking at how Hyundai en Mazda's latest generation non-turbo engines perform.

The rules require a 1.6l V6, but do not require a turbo, MGUh or MGUK. They are optional.

Of course the PU minimum weight takes all that into account. You may be able to get close with a N/A V6 for power with the MGUK included, but you won't get the power for the same length of time.

[riff_raff]

What advantage could you gain by running the compressor and turbine bearings at different speeds? The only way you could do it and be within the rules is to use a viscous coupling but creating a bearing capable of this would be a heck of an engineering feat.

In theory you could design things so the compressor and turbine bearings run at different "speeds". Many turbochargers actually have bearings that run at different speed. Turbochargers often have two separate floating journal bearings where each bearing is allowed to spin freely about the journal/shaft within the housing bores.

Don't how much, if any, benefit it might provide in this particular example though. Floating journal bearings were used in turbochargers because they were less sensitive to the shaft dynamics in the turbo spool.

[bergie88]

What advantage could you gain by running the compressor and turbine bearings at different speeds? The only way you could do it and be within the rules is to use a viscous coupling but creating a bearing capable of this would be a heck of an engineering feat.

In theory you could design things so the compressor and turbine bearings run at different "speeds". Many turbochargers actually have bearings that run at different speed. Turbochargers often have two separate floating journal bearings where each bearing is allowed to spin freely about the journal/shaft within the housing bores.

Don't how much, if any, benefit it might provide in this particular example though. Floating journal bearings were used in turbochargers because they were less sensitive to the shaft dynamics in the turbo spool.

Floating bearings do have two oil films around them, one on the inside and one on the outside. Therefore they are rotating at half the speed of the turbocharger axle, reducing vibrations and wear. In theory it is possible to run the turbine and compressor wheel at different speeds with a ratio between them, but this might be complicated due to the very high speeds of the wheels.

[Edis]

What advantage could you gain by running the compressor and turbine bearings at different speeds? The only way you could do it and be within the rules is to use a viscous coupling but creating a bearing capable of this would be a heck of an engineering feat.

In theory you could design things so the compressor and turbine bearings run at different "speeds". Many turbochargers actually have bearings that run at different speed. Turbochargers often have two separate floating journal bearings where each bearing is allowed to spin freely about the journal/shaft within the housing bores.

Don't how much, if any, benefit it might provide in this particular example though. Floating journal bearings were used in turbochargers because they were less sensitive to the shaft dynamics in the turbo spool.

Ball bearing turbochargers use something similar due to shaft dynamics, with typically the whole ball bearing unit floating on a layer or oil. Unlike the hydrodynamic bearing, the ball bearing unit is locked in position to prevent it from rotating.

[PlatinumZealot]

I was thinking, could it be possible to introduce a non turbo option, next to the current V6t. To attract new manufacturers, who do not want to get involved with turbo technology.

How would a NA V8 engine, equiped with 1 or 2 TERS units in the exhaust perform in with the same 100kg/h fuel flow limit? And with TERS, i mean a turbine and generator, harvesting enery for the MGU-K. Maybe soms efficiency is lost, but the plumbing and weight will be lower too. Also cooling this PU will be much simpler and no intercooler is needed.

I believe that NA is not dead yet. Looking at how Hyundai en Mazda's latest generation non-turbo engines perform.

N/A is still very viable with a turbine on it. Turbocharged cars are more thermodynamically efficient.. but my experience in real life I don't get any better fuel efficiency out of it (2.0l turbo replacing 3.0L NA). The driver has to be really light on the pedal to see any noticeable benefit. A well made Natural engine with TERS would be competitive because of the weight difference too.

This was my proposal on an NA engine with thermal recovery. It was mainly done to get a better sound and still be fuel efficient.

http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... 53#p544153

[wuzak]

If you stick a turbine in the exhaust why wouldn't you connect it to a compressor?