I want to design one f1 spare part

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.

Post Sat Dec 27, 2008 11:36 pm

Hi everyone,

Can anyone tell me the book that I can design one of many f1 engine spare parts except bolt, nuts, ring, and screw?

Thank you very much in advance
newabb
 
Joined: 24 Dec 2008

Post Sun Dec 28, 2008 6:48 am

newabb,

The design principles used for F1 engine design are the same as those used for any other piston engine design. The only difference is in the requirements. The principles of physics, heat transfer, thermochemistry, kinematics, metallurgy, tribology, fluid mechanics, economics, etc. are all the same.

As for F1 engine spare parts, I don't think there is really much of a market for those. They're more of a disposable product.

Check with the SAE for texts: http://www.sae.org
"Q: How do you make a small fortune in racing?
A: Start with a large one!"
riff_raff
 
Joined: 24 Dec 2004

Post Mon Dec 29, 2008 2:18 pm

I want to know what specific part do you want to design. Its not the same an engine internal than a suspension component.
I want to know why do you want to design that.
I want to know what technologies for manufacturing you are familiarized with.
I want to know wich software will you use in case you get the info, to make the models necesary to give the fisrt checks to your designs.
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna
Belatti
 
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Location: Argentina

Post Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:59 am

Hi Mr. Belatti,

What about how to design the f1 engine piston at the very beginning?

I am planning to take the fluent cfd advanced training on combustion modelling by next few months.

And I hope that training will add more useful knowledge and tool for me about f1 engine design learning pleasure.

Thanks in advance
newabb
 
Joined: 24 Dec 2008

Post Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:42 am

CFD is going to be a fairly small part thermal expansion matl. and the fact the thing goes up and down 100s of times a second will be a much bigger challenge
"The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me."
flynfrog
 
Joined: 23 Mar 2006

Post Tue Dec 30, 2008 1:37 pm

Well newabb, I have never designed a piston. First of all lets see what we are talking about:
Image

All I know are some steps you have to have in mind for designing a street engine piston, not an F1. However the same aspects have to be considered:

-The Piston Models have a complex geometry.

-Different regions of piston are under a variety of stress states e.g:
Uni-axial under thermal load at the bowl edge
Multi-axial under thermal and / or gas load in the Gallery and Bowl Base
Mean Tensile or Mean Compressive stresses

-For the locally different stress characteristics a number of local durability / risk criterion are used.

-Fatigue criteria is based on an awareness of:
Assumptions made in FE Model
Accuracy of the results
Spread in Material Model Data
Test Cycle is usually not modelled
High and Low thermal cycle effects are not modelled at the initial stage analysis.

-The Fatigue Algorithm is used as a Filter to assess piston structural strength in fatigue.

-While life is a desired result of analysis it is extremely difficult to predict.

-Emphasis remains on piston strength and empirical limits of both FOS and Stress.

So, right before starting you have to gather an inmense amount of data :P
This would be just a tiny winy 1%
Image

Then, a long process starts, where you model the same piston in different kind of FEAs (for temperature, fatigue, stress, etc.)

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

I can go on and on but then you´ll know too much :wink:
I dont really know your engineering background but if you say you´ll use fluent for combustion modelling, I guess you will only be able to work just on than: the "piston bowl".
I guess there is a designing team for such a complex part like a piston. Some guys will concentrate in fluids mechanics, some others in metalography, some in mechanical resistance, manufacturing, tests, etc, etc, etc.

Sheeez! Lots of work to do for only a little piece that will last 700km dont you think? :P
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna
Belatti
 
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Location: Argentina

Post Tue Dec 30, 2008 3:43 pm

Hi Mr. Belatti,

How much is the use of cfd analysis compared with finite element analysis of your engine piston making above?

Thanks again!
newabb
 
Joined: 24 Dec 2008

Post Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:51 pm

I think that the cdf analysis is something that must be made all along the "gas train" to name it someway. That includes the air inlet, filter, intake ducts, valves, combustion chamber shape (piston crown shape + cylinder head shape) and finally exhaust ducts.
Once all that is done, you will be already knowing what and how is entering the CC and so you can make a specific optimization in the piston head shape.

That barely realtes with all the others aspects of piston designs I mentioned.
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna
Belatti
 
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Location: Argentina

Post Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:03 pm

Mr. Belatti, Do you mind to guide me from the very beginning (first step) of this engine piston making process?

Or, say, I would to design one cylinder engine that has similar characteristics as f1.
One cylinder engine of a f1 racing car.

I own the Heywood’s internal combustion engine fundamentals book for my reference (as far as I know the previous mentioned book was used and recommended by many mechanical engineers). Actually I have many books in the subject:

Engineering Fundamentals of the Internal Combustion Engine, 2nd ed. By Willard W. Pulkrabek.
Internal Combustion Engines – Applied Thermosciences, 2nd ed. by Colin R. Ferguson and Allan T. Kirkpatrick.
Combustion, 4th ed. by Irvin Glassman and Richard A. Yetter.
An Introduction to Combustion – Concepts and Applications, 2nd ed. by Stephen R. Turns.

And planning to purchase the following books in the near future:

Advanced Engine Technology, 1st ed. by Heinz Heisler.
Design of Racing and High-Performance Engines 1998-2003 by Daniel J. Holt.
Vehicular Engine Design by Kevin L Hoag.
Internal Combustion Engine Handbook – Basics, Components, Systems, and Perspectives by Richard Van Basshuysen and Fred Schafer.
Internal Combustion Engine Modelling by J. I. Ramos.
Introduction to Internal Combustion Engines, 3rd ed. by Richard Stone.
The Internal Combustion Engine in Theory and Practice – Vol. 2: Combustion, Fuels, Materials, Design by Charles Fayette Taylor.
newabb
 
Joined: 24 Dec 2008

Post Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:48 pm

So you wanna start from scratch?
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna
Belatti
 
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Location: Argentina

Post Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:37 pm

Yes!
newabb
 
Joined: 24 Dec 2008

Post Wed Dec 31, 2008 4:24 am

Belatti,

If that piston analysis you show is your work, I'm quite impressed by your ambition!

As you clearly noted, establishing design criteria for variables such as inertia and pressure loads is fairly straightforward. But temperature/heat transfer is another matter, since it varies so widely throughout the cycle and can be affected by many things. Instantaneous inertia and pressure loads can be established fairly accurately analytically, but temps are mean values and are still empirically derived thru testing.

Also, just a few comments about your data:

1) Generally for a fatigue life analysis, the load and no. of cycles are normally (for expediency) condensed down to a single value each, usually using a root-mean-cubed (RMC) summary of a representative number of loads and the number of cycles at that particular load.

2) As you noted, there are lots of knock-down factors that you must apply to your analysis to guarantee reliability. Such as stress concentration (Kt), magnitude of load reversal (R), material grain vs. load (L, LT or ST), and margin of safety (MoS) by analysis.

3) Fatigue life for a particular material should be based on combined stress levels (ie. Goodman diagrams) and not on simple tensile stress curves (ie. S-N tensile curves).

4) Where parts are exposed to high temps for long periods of time, you must also take into consideration the effects of creep.

5) Areas such as wrist pin bores or ring lands, that are subject to cyclic contact stress under boundary type lubrication conditions, can quite easily experience fretting (surface fatigue) failures. Which can lead to galling or can be the source of fracture propagation.

All-in-all though, a nice job demonstrating the basics of modern piston design technique.

Best regards,
Terry
"Q: How do you make a small fortune in racing?
A: Start with a large one!"
riff_raff
 
Joined: 24 Dec 2004

Post Wed Dec 31, 2008 11:50 pm

Hi Mr. Belatti,

I am waiting your help for designing any f1 engine piston if you don’t mind.
I assume you want to help me.

But if not that’s ok.

At least you tell me how to make that piston 3d model in catia (I’m guessing) from beginning to the end if you don’t mind too.

I have taken catia training at my university from workbench, part design, assembly, drafting, analyzing, animation, and manufacturing too.

Thanks
newabb
 
Joined: 24 Dec 2008

Post Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:10 am

riff_raff, that piston analysis is far from being my work. As I pointed out I have never designed a piston but I "escorted" the design process when I was an internship a couple of years ago. We had the analysis and the blueprints and then we had to do the PPAP (PRODUCTION PART APPROVAL PROCESS) and the APQP (Advanced Product Quality Planning) that are typical in automotive industry.

During those processes we discovered areas for improving the part (mostly looking at the piston after severe dyno tests) and changed some aspects of the design. I was asked to design the machining tools for the pin bore. Together with turning and rectifying there are two additional operations to be made:
- Pressing (using a modified pin as a tool we managed to permanently deform the pin bore in a parabolic shape in the head side, reaching 0.007mm max clearence) This was necesary because of some problems in zones 1-2-3 that the FEA analysis did not predicted (stress concentrated below zone 2) --> see riff_raff comment number 5)
- Seeger groove machining and pin lubrication channel machining.

Now I wont tell you how did I get to measure that 0.007mm parabola :wink: but I can tell you that getting the operation in a good R&R figures was quite hard.

As riff_raff noted, temperature/heat transfer is another matter. The temp FEA analysis is hard to confirm by testing unlike inertia and presurre loads. The most critical point is to get the piston to be exactly a cylinder in the permanent or steady state. The part is not simetric so the aluminum expands differently in different direction according to temps. Not only the skirt profile has a weird geometry with diameters being reduced close to the upper -and hotter- side, like the one I posted, but the piston itself is an ellipse, being the pin direction the larger axe (more material).

For fatigue life I find easier to use Soderberg 2nd criterion. However Goodman criterion is similar and easier for non so complicated parts (different load directions).

Ragarding creep, I do not recall its consideration in this particular part, but I agree with you that its necessary. Maybe simply I haven´t seen those pages, but as I said, the whole designing process is huge and lots of people from different countries works on it, so there might still be issues and analysis I have not seen.

So, newabb, as you can see its quite difficult that I can guide you all along the process as I don´t know it all. Im no good using FEA softwares, but I can analyse wich theories and maths they do use to calculate and also I can take conclusions of the results.

This has been a long long year for me and tomorrow Im leaving on holidays for the whole january. Ill be traveling all arround the huge and empty south of my country in a jeep, looking for some adventures. However I´ll carry my laptop in case I get bored somewhere. :D
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna
Belatti
 
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Location: Argentina

Post Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:19 pm

Hi, what is the angle of de piston's head?
adsportfan
 
Joined: 15 Mar 2011

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