Wheel nuts should be expensive!

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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WhiteBlue
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Re: Wheel nuts should be expensive!

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Its fun to read this thread. Sometimes I just smiled about some of the more extreme opinions. In my view it is legitimate to make a decision which optimizes cost over performance if the performance gain is minute and the additional cost is excessive. Areas where you pay 10 times more for 1/1000 improvement of performance should be inhibited by the rules just by applying common sense. Of course some people will shell out any money and only levelling the playing field by rule will stop them forcing this on the rest of the field.

I also think that the rules should be fixed in such a way that all performce gains can only be made by more efficient use of fuel/energy. That would help F1 in the ongoing automotive crisis.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

Jersey Tom
Jersey Tom
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Re: Wheel nuts should be expensive!

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Doubt you'd see quite that weight savings from mag. Lighter per unit volume, but stiffness is probably going to be the design driver rather than pure stress levels. Will need more volume to make up for the decrease in modulus.

But yea, pounds of unsprung mass are certainly significant. Just a question of making sure you're not adding camber and toe compliance which will murder your grip levels.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

mmc
mmc
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Re: Wheel nuts should be expensive!

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A litle perspective in the price of ti nuts;

Titanium Ducati Rear Axle Nut In Natural Finish - TIDUCNUT10 Ref: TIDUCNUT10
Rear Axle Nut beautifully manufactured complete with cone and washer as a one piece unit
40% lighter than the originals and highly resistant to corrosion
Torque to same as manufacturers original
Price is for Natural Polished Titanium
GBP Price £68.08 (£78.29 Including VAT at 15%)

http://www.tastynuts.com/site/frames/fr ... online.htm

Yes...it's smaller but even at 10 times the price, it's still half the cost of the F1 bit.

Just wondering...If wheel nuts are only used once due to some compromise in their integraty after said use; What can be said for hubs and stub axles that see the same stresses (at their interface).

xpensive
xpensive
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Re: Wheel nuts should be expensive!

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Great info mmc, this will be useful, thanks!
Didn't find that particular Ducati part, but I checked pricing in general for threaded and machined Ti Gr.5 products.

It seems that single unit price for M10 bolts is somehere around 600 EUR/kg, larger objects should be less of course.
An F1 wheel-nut as seen them on this thread, should be no more than 200 gram, estimating some 100 EURs a piece.

As a reference, I can have Grade 5, 880 MPa yield strength, bar stock in the workshop at 50 EUR/kg.

1000 EUR a piece? That's NASA pricing if you ask me.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

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safeaschuck
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Re: Wheel nuts should be expensive!

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Image

This is the closest I can see in that link to the Ti-nut I saw, It's larger diameter at M48, If I had to take a stab I'd say the alleged F1 one I saw was more like M30 but twice as deep. The nut from the pic above is £150 not including V.A.T. And I'm pretty sure it comes with no inspection reports, no ISO 9001 certification etc. I notice in their 'about us' section they mention continuous improvement but make no claims as to being certified as such. No doubt these parts are in use on BSB and I'm sure their manufacturers have enquired as to the possibility of supplying F1 teams and they have probably found out what a lot of F1 suppliers already know:
If you buy material thats going to be used in F1 you need to know where it came from what was done to it and have records to proove it.
If you machine something you will need a record of pretty much everything you have done, down to the micron.
If you sell something you had better be on hand every minute of the day and be prepared to drop everything to re-make it if that's what is needed.

If you meet these criteria you MAY be lucky enough to be invited to supply prototypes and if these are successful you MAY be added to a list of preferred suppliers, being one of two or three people who are allowed to supply nuts, and if you hit every deadline and every part has a 100% inspection pass rate over the next year or two you MAY become the go-to supplier for those nuts, but you will have to work bloody hard to stay there.
For a part like a nut they will probably be required from scratch on a 2 week turnaround, 3-6months stock Max. each design will probably be subtly different from the last ones, meaning any stock carried is useless, an experienced C.A.D. designer will need to be on hand to do a little re-work, as well as a machine programmer, operator and inspector.

This is the kind of B/S that pushes the price up, and I'm afraid if the parts were homologated, this part at least wouldn't get all that much better (apart from the quantities).



, Meaning it's pretty much useless for F1. The kind of Back checking they do when a part fails requires the kind of

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safeaschuck
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Re: Wheel nuts should be expensive!

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oops, ignore the last bit, a bit of errant copying and pasting whilst I was re-composing.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Wheel nuts should be expensive!

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That's a little extreme.. lol the redesigning of the nuts and bolts every 3 to 6 months.
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safeaschuck
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Re: Wheel nuts should be expensive!

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Fair point Mr Smikle, I imagine the only thing they would need to change often might be, say, the aero cover mounting diameters if they changed the aero cover design, which I imagine would have settled down now. But can you imagine how many re-design's they must have had when they first introduced those covers? they surely would have struggled getting the assemblies on and off to begin with, or struggled to reach the locking pin in a hurry, or required more or less cooling. There would have been frantic purchase orders flying back and forth, threats and angry telephone calls, good grief, I've been on both sides of this particular war of words.
When anyone from Tier 1 (F1, NASCAR) or Tier 2 (DTM, WRC, LMS etc) orders a part from a subbie they will never make any extras other than the minimum scrappage allowance, even if they are a very regular and loyal customer. So many companies will have been burnt in this way, a slight re-design and everything you hold is worthless, the designers and buyers from the teams have the best of intentions of course, they are trying to reduce costs by getting a larger quantity made and being doubly clever by getting you to hold half the order at your expense but when the order comes for a new design they sure can leave you hanging with a few thousand £/$ worth of stock.
It's not unknown for a team to ask that work commence on a verbal agreement since waiting for a P/O to be raised can add too much to the lead time and then you can find yourself in a bit of a dilemma. An example would be:

Team: Get started with 200 off, just machine the Taper the hex and the thread, we will get back to you with a P/O for the correct part number when we know shoulder length and diameter for the aero cover groove.
Nut Contractor: makes 200 off
Team: Right here's a P/O to finish 100 off to this design (included), hold onto the rest as we are working on a slight variation, we will get you the P/O for the rest in a few weeks.
Contractor: chases team for order and is eventually told they needed a major re-design and the stock is scrap.

At this point 2 things can happen:
1. Some haggling over money already spent, several hours wasted working out the cost of work to date which by now is almost outweighed by the extra time taken to resolve, and if you are lucky, an the guy placing the order has a heart, you get paid for the machining work already done.
2: Where is the purchase order? you shouldn't have begun work on those part's as you didn't have a completed order from us. Payment denied! :shock:

This is an extreme case but when it has happened once, as it surely will when companies are trying to help a customer out, it changes the way orders are dealt with and when quoting a new job, covering one's arse is as important as an accurate representation of cost.

God what an essay, sorry :(