optimising kers usage

[nudger]

i remember some years ago Indy cars used to have a series of LEDs, left and right, to be a visual display of both the cars slip and wheel traction. it would seem to me that system would now be very useful in formula one to ensure kers is used at the best moment while exiting a corner.

[Dukeage]

That would be probably illegal under the traction control ban.

No car may be equipped with a system or device which is capable of preventing the driven wheels from spinning under power or of compensating for excessive throttle demand by the driver.
Any device or system which notifies the driver of the onset of wheel spin is not permitted.

It would probably fall under the second, and probably under the first. Presuming KERS usage is "throttle demand".

[RacingManiac]

If it doesn't actually "control" the engine directly, why would it be a TC ban item? It could just be a visual aid the same way as a shift light. Whether driver can handle the extra information is another story.

With the 6 sec KERS, I think there is probably a optimum way of using it at a given portion of the track to achieve the best laptime. I wonder if something as simple as using the sim to find that, and just use a visual aid like a light signal on the wheel(or a helmet display like Williams did) to tell the driver when to press the button and when to let go. Probably won't be that useful for "racing" since you will use KERS as appropreate to pass or defend your position, but it should help for qualifying when you want that fast lap. A more complicated solution might even be a signal that tells you when the wheelspin is not an issue, we know that with SECU they can't do TC, but they should still be able to get wheel spin for data purpose and use that as an warning to driver...

[DaveKillens]

Reaction time.
Simple reaction time is the time required for an observer to respond to the presence of a stimulus. For example, a subject might be asked to press a button as soon as a light or sound appears. Mean RT for young adults is approximately 190 milliseconds to a detect visual stimulus, and approximately 160 milliseconds to detect an auditory stimulus.

Maybe a sound source is better than a dash display.

But a reaction time of 160 milliseconds is .16 seconds. When are you going to find a driver willing to wait that long for a device to tell him to go? Add up 160 milliseconds by each lap, and you suffer a serious handicap in time. For instance, if you have a track where there are five opportunities to use KERS, then that means the driver waits a total of at least (.16 X 5 = 0. 0.8 seconds.

[RacingManiac]

Technically you'd take that into account when you are programming the signal. It'd really just be a reference thing that "for best lap time with KERS do this" kind of deal. In an ideal world the driver wouldn't be the one using it, computer would control that. But since the rule stipulate that the driver has to control that...Like I said though, it would really only help in situation where you are not racing someone, more for a qualifying case.

The same would apply to the wing adjustment too...


FYI, since R10, Audi have always have a wheelspin indicator on the dash of the car, because they can't "hear" wheel spin anymore due to the nature of Diesel(the sudden rise in rev). So they just have a dashboard indicator that has 3 stages of light. Although they do run TC, I am guessing it doesn't always control it properly especially when dealing with changing grip condition of the endurance racing...

[Ian P.]

Bit of a moot point as more teams opt to take the KERs out of the car.
At some tracks, there isn't going to be much of an opportunity to utilize 6 seconds of additional power, Monaco and Hungry, and at other tracks where you can use it, the sacrifice in balance in fast corners, Silverstone, Monza, could be greater than the benefit.
Will be interesting to see the statistics at the end of the season for who used it where and who was winning. So far it is not looking good for KERs.
If MM increases the power output and the duration of KERs delivery it could be good at some tracks. Unfortunately this will mean a heavier and bulkier system that may well be a greater disadvantage in terms of balance and CG.
If the teams have to fuel up for a full race distance, where can you fit the fuel and the batteries. Maybe take the driver out of the car. Now there is a way MM can save the teams a bunch of cash.
Yeah.....thet's the ticket......

[jamsbong]

I always thought that the rules had put too much limits on KERS for it to be really useful. With +80hp for 6.6secs per lap only it is barely enough to make a difference compared to the 30kgs weight penalty. Moreover, your braking balance is affected and this can be dangerous in the rain.

Thats why the teams WITHOUT kers are one top of the game right now. I doubt the DD teams will ever put any KERS on board.

[ISLAMATRON]

I always thought that the rules had put too much limits on KERS for it to be really useful. With +80hp for 6.6secs per lap only it is barely enough to make a difference compared to the 30kgs weight penalty. Moreover, your braking balance is affected and this can be dangerous in the rain.

Thats why the teams WITHOUT kers are one top of the game right now. I doubt the DD teams will ever put any KERS on board.

When the KERS teams get a DD you will see the non-KERS scrambling to get the systems fitted.

But there is no doubt that the teams castrated KERS for this year... Max is already talking about higher KERs limits for next year and saying he will ax any talk of a standard KERS.

[jamsbong]

I always thought that the rules had put too much limits on KERS for it to be really useful. With +80hp for 6.6secs per lap only it is barely enough to make a difference compared to the 30kgs weight penalty. Moreover, your braking balance is affected and this can be dangerous in the rain.

Thats why the teams WITHOUT kers are one top of the game right now. I doubt the DD teams will ever put any KERS on board.

When the KERS teams get a DD you will see the non-KERS scrambling to get the systems fitted.

But there is no doubt that the teams castrated KERS for this year... Max is already talking about higher KERs limits for next year and saying he will ax any talk of a standard KERS.

So clearly Max has already realise that KERS is not really useful and earlier talks of standardising KERS are gone. I won't be surprise if the DD teams will choose to take up KERS system with their "matured" aero package next year when it becomes feasible.

[ISLAMATRON]

So clearly Max has already realise that KERS is not really useful and earlier talks of standardising KERS are gone. I won't be surprise if the DD teams will choose to take up KERS system with their "matured" aero package next year when it becomes feasible.

I believe KERS is a required component next year. Its not that Max realizes that KERs is not useful, the leading teams, specifically Ferrari & McLaren, lobbied to have its effect lessened in its first year and also to make it optional, from next year on it is required and will be increased in power.

They also couldnt make it too powerful on the grounds of safety, speeds would be increased dramatically with the extra power from KERS and the same amount of power from the engine. They will eventually lower the power from the engine and thus the KERS power will magnified.

[roost89]

Back to optimising the usage of KERS
Ant Davidson and a fellow from Force India referred to Lewis using the KERS to balance the car on exiting corners. Especially corner 10/11 where most of the drivers were locking up the front left on entry.

[DaveKillens]

Max really wants to push such technologies such as KERS. It won't just go away because it's presently impractical.
Personally, I interpret KERS as a technology demonstrator for this season. The way the rules are currently written, each team must run the equivalent of KERS, either the working system, or at least comparable ballast. So the teams get to learn, and decide when KERS is an advantage, and where it handicaps performance. You have to say that this part is going well, a lot of teams learning a lot (in some cases, maybe too much) about the drawbacks of KERS versus it's potential.
What is happening right now will have a huge impact on the near future. My prediction is that a standardized KERS will be regulated, just like the ECU. In it's future version it will posess greater energy levels, and have a definite effect on performance.

If you google "KERS supplier 2010", it will become evident that Mercedes and BMW are trying to leverage themselves as being the sole KERS supplier in the future. To capture such a contract the company would gain a huge public relations coup. That is why (my prediction) you will see KERS run all year on Mercedes, and BMW running it as much as they can.

[jamsbong]

Anyway, like I said before. Until KERS are actually practical to use. I do not see why the DD teams should use it. If the time to use it is 2010, then thats when BrawnGP, RedBull will buy these systems.

At the moment, KERS just stirs up a bit of drama by temporary shuffling the positions.

Personally, I reckon bad weather can do what much better! Nevertheless, KERS is a demonstration of F1 tech and I do prefer the Prius with a KERS button! rather than all green friendly/boring image only.

[alexbarwell]

The declaration from briatore that FOTA want to drop KERS for the season has a point that development is necessary, but a more vigorous incentive would get it moving - sealed fuel tanks for the race and any recovered energy either extends your range or usable power, the refueling currently makes a mockery; you've run out of energy source before race distance so either turn it down a good bit, or start off with more fuel and face a weight penalty. We also get faster laps as the car gets lighter, but tyres fading towards the end and the exciting last few laps as some of the cars try to finish on fumes because some impetuous driver has emptied his tank 10 laps before the end. Not to mention the change in balance/weight distribution.

[pipex]

We are clearly seeing that KERS in its actual form is pretty useless. I think that this is due to the way the rules were created by the FIA. If KERS is that important to give F1 green credentials why not create a working group with specialists in energy recovery systems, like the OWG. In this working group, experts of each F1 team can discuss what needs to be done in terms of ruling to make a useful KERS, for example defining the maximum energy, when the energy needs to be released, and other parameters to make the system application successful.
We already know that the systems in real cars are much more complex than what is implemented in F1. I think that the push-to-pass application is not too relevant in the real world, so why not use it to reduce fuel comsumption?.
Another point i want to make is that the FIA indecision to make the system compulsory is what is making us looking at the system as useless. If the system was compulsory for each race and each team, we would be looking at KERS as a performance differentiator. In fact, nearly every new rule makes the cars slower, but we don't see that new rules as having a big new "negative" factor because all the cars are subjected to the same set of them. Limiting the energy capability also reduce the effectiveness of the designs.