Type of shifter

[Shrek]

why did F1 go to paddle shifters and what's wrong with the floor shifter?

[roost89]

Hello, There're a few I can think of for this:
Floor shifters aren't fast enough when changing gears. Paddles also allow the drivers hand to be on the steering wheel at all times. I assume there's some weight difference (paddles weighing less).

Edit: I thought of another one, space. There's alot more space available to be shaped and (taken away) when the paddles are used as the stick is on the floor. I can also imagine they'd be able to play with ballast a bit more.

[sticky667]

it's safer too without a big stick next to their legs.

[autogyro]

it's safer too without a big stick next to their legs.

The paddle is only used now for the clutch.
Gearshifts are made using buttons on the steering wheel.
In simple terms, the gearbox is shifted by electrically controlled shift components and the electrical shifting can be switched using almost anything.
The decision is ergonomic and aimed at the fastest human method of use.
As a matter of interest, I have been trying for years to get such a system into motor bikes where such technology could massively improve the control ergonomics and totally change the control method and layout but bikers still want to remain macho and the bike companies are satisfied with inefficient levers and pedals.
There must be at least three seconds a lap available here for Moto GP bikes!

[jddh1]

it's safer too without a big stick next to their legs.

The paddle is only used now for the clutch.
Gearshifts are made using buttons on the steering wheel.
In simple terms, the gearbox is shifted by electrically controlled shift components and the electrical shifting can be switched using almost anything.
The decision is ergonomic and aimed at the fastest human method of use.
As a matter of interest, I have been trying for years to get such a system into motor bikes where such technology could massively improve the control ergonomics and totally change the control method and layout but bikers still want to remain macho and the bike companies are satisfied with inefficient levers and pedals.
There must be at least three seconds a lap available here for Moto GP bikes!

I, for one, like the current system of shifting with your foot on bikes. Perhaps its because we are used to it now so we take it for granted. But I'd love to test ride a bike with the equivalent of the paddle shifter.
Thing is though that there's a quite a number of controls near your hands anyway.

[autogyro]

it's safer too without a big stick next to their legs.

The paddle is only used now for the clutch.
Gearshifts are made using buttons on the steering wheel.
In simple terms, the gearbox is shifted by electrically controlled shift components and the electrical shifting can be switched using almost anything.
The decision is ergonomic and aimed at the fastest human method of use.
As a matter of interest, I have been trying for years to get such a system into motor bikes where such technology could massively improve the control ergonomics and totally change the control method and layout but bikers still want to remain macho and the bike companies are satisfied with inefficient levers and pedals.
There must be at least three seconds a lap available here for Moto GP bikes!

I, for one, like the current system of shifting with your foot on bikes. Perhaps its because we are used to it now so we take it for granted. But I'd love to test ride a bike with the equivalent of the paddle shifter.
Thing is though that there's a quite a number of controls near your hands anyway.

No paddles and no handlebar levers. Just left and right foot brakes and right thumb button upshifts, left thumb button downshifts.
No clutch to operate just a throttle to twist.
Oh, for the last, it would need my ESERU, which on a bike would be tiny.
With my turbo generator idea using a Norton type rotary it would be unbeatable.
Sorry I forgot the Japs forced Norton and the rotary out of any form of racing.
Sad that, I suppose we have to remain in the 19th century frantically trying on bikes to even out the torque to the rear wheel, when a rotary does in naturally.

[flynfrog]

quote="jddh1"]

it's safer too without a big stick next to their legs.

The paddle is only used now for the clutch.
Gearshifts are made using buttons on the steering wheel.
In simple terms, the gearbox is shifted by electrically controlled shift components and the electrical shifting can be switched using almost anything.
The decision is ergonomic and aimed at the fastest human method of use.
As a matter of interest, I have been trying for years to get such a system into motor bikes where such technology could massively improve the control ergonomics and totally change the control method and layout but bikers still want to remain macho and the bike companies are satisfied with inefficient levers and pedals.
There must be at least three seconds a lap available here for Moto GP bikes!

I, for one, like the current system of shifting with your foot on bikes. Perhaps its because we are used to it now so we take it for granted. But I'd love to test ride a bike with the equivalent of the paddle shifter.
Thing is though that there's a quite a number of controls near your hands anyway.

No paddles and no handlebar levers. Just left and right foot brakes and right thumb button upshifts, left thumb button downshifts.
No clutch to operate just a throttle to twist.
Oh, for the last, it would need my ESERU, which on a bike would be tiny.
With my turbo generator idea using a Norton type rotary it would be unbeatable.
Sorry I forgot the Japs forced Norton and the rotary out of any form of racing.
Sad that, I suppose we have to remain in the 19th century frantically trying on bikes to even out the torque to the rear wheel, when a rotary does in naturally.[/quote]


Why use a gear box at all. And why use a big clunky rotary when you could put an electrically coupled turbine on it and call it a day. I just solved your problem and I only have 2 moving parts

[autogyro]

"Why use a gear box at all. And why use a big clunky rotary when you could put an electrically coupled turbine on it and call it a day. I just solved your problem and I only have 2 moving parts"

Come on flyn-frog, there is a very simple answer to that idea. Fuel efficiency.
You would never be able to match the turbine to output, other than at a narrow rpm close to magnetic lock up, which just like current first generation electric's and hybrid's lack real energy efficiency without a proper geartrain. (Excuses about battery technology are only part of the story). A geartrain between the turbine and the electro magnetic lock would be like our friends helicopter gearboxes, heavy, bulky and very expensive. The heat would be amazing though, make a good bike dragster. Mind you a modern full electric would be better.

[RH1300S]

why did F1 go to paddle shifters and what's wrong with the floor shifter?

It started with John Barnard in the Ferrari 640.

His primary objective was to allow the smallest possible tub for aero reasons. Also, the much faster gearchange allowed other benefits too.

He also introduced flexible suspension mounts in place of the then common spherical bearings.

So, they save space, allow faster gearchanges (less disturbance to the chassis and reduced accleration downtime).

Clever guy.

[autogyro]

why did F1 go to paddle shifters and what's wrong with the floor shifter?

It started with John Barnard in the Ferrari 640.

His primary objective was to allow the smallest possible tub for aero reasons. Also, the much faster gearchange allowed other benefits too.

He also introduced flexible suspension mounts in place of the then common spherical bearings.

So, they save space, allow faster gearchanges (less disturbance to the chassis and reduced accleration downtime).

Clever guy.

Very clever.
They were knife edge mountings.
'Reduced acceleration down time'? Sorry but the speed that the gearbox changes gear is limited by the mechanical components. The control system, including the driver simply applies a 'demand for operation' at a certain speed.
Modern shift systems (with or without paddles), are very fast and down in the milliseconds but there is still a time delay when torque is not transmitted to the output.
My ESERU can be configured to transfer torque during the shift overlap.

[flynfrog]

"Why use a gear box at all. And why use a big clunky rotary when you could put an electrically coupled turbine on it and call it a day. I just solved your problem and I only have 2 moving parts"

Come on flyn-frog, there is a very simple answer to that idea. Fuel efficiency.
You would never be able to match the turbine to output, other than at a narrow rpm close to magnetic lock up, which just like current first generation electric's and hybrid's lack real energy efficiency without a proper geartrain. (Excuses about battery technology are only part of the story). A geartrain between the turbine and the electro magnetic lock would be like our friends helicopter gearboxes, heavy, bulky and very expensive. The heat would be amazing though, make a good bike dragster. Mind you a modern full electric would be better.

An electric coupling with a small turbine would allow great fuel economy. You need a small battery pack as a buffer. There is a unit outside my office at work right now that is used for power generation it would be pretty simple to run that generator to an electric motor. not to mention I could carry it under my arm. It makes much more sense than trying to package a rotary motor on a motor cycle and it doesn't require any gearbox that doesn't exist yet.

With a properly sized battery you could have both wheels driving and eliminate the brakes with a fully regenerative system. Maybe a small brake to come to a complete stop or just turn the motors backwards.

[autogyro]

"Why use a gear box at all. And why use a big clunky rotary when you could put an electrically coupled turbine on it and call it a day. I just solved your problem and I only have 2 moving parts"

Come on flyn-frog, there is a very simple answer to that idea. Fuel efficiency.
You would never be able to match the turbine to output, other than at a narrow rpm close to magnetic lock up, which just like current first generation electric's and hybrid's lack real energy efficiency without a proper geartrain. (Excuses about battery technology are only part of the story). A geartrain between the turbine and the electro magnetic lock would be like our friends helicopter gearboxes, heavy, bulky and very expensive. The heat would be amazing though, make a good bike dragster. Mind you a modern full electric would be better.

An electric coupling with a small turbine would allow great fuel economy. You need a small battery pack as a buffer. There is a unit outside my office at work right now that is used for power generation it would be pretty simple to run that generator to an electric motor. not to mention I could carry it under my arm. It makes much more sense than trying to package a rotary motor on a motor cycle and it doesn't require any gearbox that doesn't exist yet.

With a properly sized battery you could have both wheels driving and eliminate the brakes with a fully regenerative system. Maybe a small brake to come to a complete stop or just turn the motors backwards.

It is not a simple matter to connect the output of a turbine generator to an electric drive motor whilst balancing the load and maintaining a narrow turbine rpm for fuel efficiency.
Any battery system used to attempt to do this would have to be instant charge/discharge for a start and very large and heavy. The need would be to convert any magnetic slip caused by a differing rpm between the generator, motor and turbine, instantly into electrical energy storage and or instantly recover this energy from storage. The purpose being to prevent energy waste at any condition other than balanced turbo rpm/magnetic lock. A flywheel energy storage unit would be better but still insufficient at present levels of development to maintain a near constant turbine/generator speed in all operational conditions.
I have already mentioned replacing wheel brakes with energy recovery systems in an earlier post. At the present time this would only be feasible with F1 finance levels in Kers development. Guess what, the Fota teams binned it so they could make money and stop others developing systems.

[Krispy]

The paddle is only used now for the clutch.

I thought there was many paddles on a steering wheel, I remember seeing a Mclaren wheel that had 6 (?) 2 for shifting, 2 for clutch, and 2 for (bias adjustment?)

[safeaschuck]

yep, i beleive the paddles are still used to shift. Although not a mechanical linkage as their ergonomics may suggest.
I believe using the thumbs to shift would be a bad idea when you only have one on each hand and their positioning and grip on the circumference of the steering wheel is fairly critical to car control. Fingertips however, of which the drivers have 4 per hand to choose from etc. is their really any need for me to finish.
Still, felt good to put a post in again, even if I am wrong.

[Krispy]

yep, i beleive the paddles are still used to shift. Although not a mechanical linkage as their ergonomics may suggest.
I believe using the thumbs to shift would be a bad idea when you only have one on each hand and their positioning and grip on the circumference of the steering wheel is fairly critical to car control. Fingertips however, of which the drivers have 4 per hand to choose from etc. is their really any need for me to finish.
Still, felt good to put a post in again, even if I am wrong.

I have raced in cars using thumbs to shift and it is a little odd to me. I pushed for paddle shifters, but to no avail. Really it just comes down to driver preference/complexity.