Talking to a turbo expert

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.

Post Thu Sep 16, 2010 5:17 am

http://www.acarplace.com/cars/turbochargers.html

Great interview with a guy from Garrett about global TC business and technology.

Particularly interesting is the concept of aggressive 50% downsizing with e-boosting. KERS equipped cars with high voltage should be particularly suited to such practices.

I'm wondering if e-boosting or turbo compounding in a hybrid turbo charger would not be the best solution. You do have some losses by the generation and the electric motor but you would not loose any energy by a waste gate and could harvest much more energy from the turbine than the engine needs for charging.

About modern turbo methods.

  • Twin turbos help with the turbo lag problem.
  • The use of variable vanes to control the aspect ratio can totally eliminate turbo lag. Disadvantage; no total energy use of exhaust gas possible. http://www.autozine.org/technical_schoo ... _3.htm#VTG
  • You can use e-boosting with an electric high speed servo motor/generator on the TC shaft to already run the compressor up to boost speed while the engine is being fired up. The engine will not experience any turbo lag at all through the complete operating range. http://www.ecomotors.com/mechatronik-division
  • The same thing is obviously possible with a hybrid turbo charger where the turbine and the compressor are not on the same shaft but connected to individual electric motor/generator units. This option is particularly useful when you want to avoid additional space and weight for connecting the intake and exhaust manifolds in one unit and are prepared to incur the additional weight of one electric unit. It opens the additional option for extremely asymmetric power specs between turbine and compressor. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_turbocharger
Last edited by WhiteBlue on Sat Sep 18, 2010 3:06 am, edited 3 times in total.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)
WhiteBlue
 
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Post Thu Sep 16, 2010 11:29 am

If it was used to clean up a Wankel rotary with my ESERU on the back of it, you would have a tiny light unit with very few moving parts WB and the ability to run full electric with engine off, range extend and parralel or series hybrid.
Only extras would be a fuel tank, battery pack and a control unit.
autogyro
 
Joined: 4 Oct 2009

Post Thu Sep 16, 2010 12:27 pm

I really do think the reintroduction of turbos to F1 will make a significant impact in the car market. Small turbo engines are very efficient while also maintaining a decent level of power.

Really, the only people using turbos in the North America car market is Audi and VW.
Last edited by ecapox on Thu Sep 16, 2010 12:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ecapox
 
Joined: 14 May 2010

Post Thu Sep 16, 2010 12:31 pm

NA= North America???
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machin
 
Joined: 25 Nov 2008

Post Thu Sep 16, 2010 12:34 pm

machin wrote:NA= North America???


Yep. And im not including the abominations of turbo engines from the 1980-90s Chrysler Lebarons. #-o
ecapox
 
Joined: 14 May 2010

Post Thu Sep 16, 2010 12:43 pm

As the Garrett man explained the European markets discovered turbos in the diesel engines. They made small engines powerful, drivable, fuel efficient and reliable without the turbo lag experience. When the confidence was there engineers started to use it to downsize the petrol engines. I think it did not happen in NA because there wasn't a significant market for diesel cars.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)
WhiteBlue
 
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Post Thu Sep 16, 2010 12:48 pm

ecapox wrote:I really do think the reintroduction of turbos to F1 will make a significant impact in the car market. Small turbo engines are very efficient while also maintaining a decent level of power.

Really, the only people using turbos in the North America car market is Audi and VW.

Outside of the US, small turbo engines are definitely "in". Recent magazine articles point to 2 or 3 cylinder 8-900cc turbo petrol motors giving 80-100bhp and 125-150lbft in the very near future. In most hatchbacks, that sort of performance is 'adequate'. That they also reckon to give 60+mpg is the real issue though.

There was a suggestion that the Ford Mondeo's main engine would be 160-180bhp 1.6 litre with a 220-250bhp 2litre performance version. Again utilising turbo technology.

These figures are from memory of a recent article in Autocar so please don't shoot me down if they're not 100% accurate [-o<

The Fiat MultiAir system looks very promising. They are likely to license it to other manufacturers too I believe.
Just_a_fan
 
Joined: 31 Jan 2010

Post Thu Sep 16, 2010 1:44 pm

Here the only gasoline turbos I see are VAGS, too, with the exception of the 5 in line that Volvo and Ford uses in some vehicles.

I have heard that in Europe there is a version of the VW Passat with a 1.4 liter turbo producing 170HP, is it right?

Well, that huge car with a small powerfull engine seems a nice thing.

@autoguru: why dont you actually build on ESERU or STFU? You know, there is a guy at the forum called Feliks that actually DOES things rather than talk about them... :D
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Belatti
 
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Location: Argentina

Post Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:52 pm

Belatti wrote:I have heard that in Europe there is a version of the VW Passat with a 1.4 liter turbo producing 170HP, is it right?

Well, that huge car with a small powerfull engine seems a nice thing.

It uses a combination of turbo and supercharger. It debuted in the Mk5 Golf if I remember correctly.
Just_a_fan
 
Joined: 31 Jan 2010

Post Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:54 pm

Outside of the US, small turbo engines are definitely "in". Recent magazine articles point to 2 or 3 cylinder 8-900cc turbo petrol motors giving 80-100bhp and 125-150lbft in the very near future.


funny how things come in "swings and roundabouts", depending from the "flavour of the month" in car marketing.

I had and Daihatsu Charade GTti in 1991
993 cm³ 3 cylinder 12 valve turbo making 101 hp in stock condition (132hp with a bit of tuning)
in a ~810kg front wheel drive car

the car was a lot of fun to drive, and made some much more powerful cars look pretty average at the time.
O.K. fuel economy was not one of it´s strongest points at the time :lol:

Last edited by 747heavy on Thu Sep 16, 2010 8:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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747heavy
 
Joined: 6 Jul 2010

Post Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:58 pm

Just_a_fan wrote:
Belatti wrote:I have heard that in Europe there is a version of the VW Passat with a 1.4 liter turbo producing 170HP, is it right?

Well, that huge car with a small powerfull engine seems a nice thing.

It uses a combination of turbo and supercharger. It debuted in the Mk5 Golf if I remember correctly.


Ahhh, the 1.4TSI makes as much power as my Mk4 GTI. How very depressing.
xxChrisxx
 
Joined: 18 Sep 2009

Post Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:05 pm

BMW does a V8 bi turbo for the 5-class and will do 3 and 4 cylinder turbos very soon.
Mercedes does a B 200 turbo
Volvo has turbo engines
McLaren MP4-12C

http://www.nissanforums.com/forced-indu ... lease.html
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)
WhiteBlue
 
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Post Thu Sep 16, 2010 6:40 pm

Turbochargers are VERY common in North America.

BMW also does twin turbo/single turbo 6 cylinder for all the cars in its line (excluding X3).

Ford uses twin turbo V6's in the new Tarus

MINI uses turbo 4clyinders in the Cooper S

Chevrolet uses turbo 4cylinders in the Cobalt SS

Mazda and Acura use turbo 4cylinders in their midsized SUV's

Just a few of many that I'm sure i've missed ;)
majicmeow
 
Joined: 5 Feb 2008

Post Thu Sep 16, 2010 6:53 pm

majicmeow wrote:BMW also does twin turbo/single turbo 6 cylinder for all the cars in its line (excluding X3).


The F25 (new X3) can get the N55 (3.0L Turbo).
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jon-mullen
 
Joined: 10 Sep 2008
Location: Big Blue Nation

Post Thu Sep 16, 2010 8:52 pm

majicmeow wrote:Turbochargers are VERY common in North America.

BMW also does twin turbo/single turbo 6 cylinder for all the cars in its line (excluding X3).

Ford uses twin turbo V6's in the new Tarus

MINI uses turbo 4clyinders in the Cooper S

Chevrolet uses turbo 4cylinders in the Cobalt SS

Mazda and Acura use turbo 4cylinders in their midsized SUV's

Just a few of many that I'm sure i've missed ;)


Over 50% of your list is not manufactured in North America, the Tarus is a big seller however you can't exactly call a 3.5L V6 a compact fuel efficient engine. A huge influence in Europe was the introduction of the Audi Quattro 2.1 L Turbo in 1980 which changed Rallying overnight. In the 80's there were more spectators following rally cars around forests than you would ever see at even F1 events. Turbo cars became more acceptable.

Now if NASCAR were to introduce a 2.0 L 4 cyclinder turbo engine with the same power as the current 5.86 L lump I think you would see changes in what people would buy comming out of Detriot.
Gatecrasher
 
Joined: 2 Jan 2010

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