2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Facts Only
Facts Only
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Ferrari Turbine and Wastegate Analysis

Despite being a little behind on overall PU performance Ferrari have some interesting features, here is some analysis of points which I have not seen before in the press/internet. Despite my name some of this is analysis and not from 1st hand knowledge sadly.

Turbine Layout:

I believe Ferrari (and Mercedes) are running a Twin Entry turbine housing similar to the Audi R18 set-up (google it) which I have annotated in red with the shaft running clockwise (as viewed from the rear) although Mercedes are running Anti-clockwise.

More interestingly Ferrari are running a wastegate with feed pipes the same diameter as the main exhaust secondary pipes allowing them to bypass 100% of the pressure through the wastegate. They are using a twin butterfly or rotational valve system. I have annotated the wastegate parts in blue, the second photo shows hydraulic feed and return hoses into the actuator and the linkage annotated in blue.
The large section wastegate feeds will be allow for a very aggressive overtake mode where the wastegate is fully open and the MGUH drives the turbo allowing for a fully boosted engine without the back pressure losses created by the Turbine wheel, used in conjunction with an aggressive map and full MGUK power this will give the highest possible engine power for a limited period and is often referred to on team radio.

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Also in the second picture I have highlighted in green the position of the wastegate relative to the RH Turbine housing inlet and done the same thing in the third photo. This is to show a little of the mounting arrangement of the whole Turbo and how this relates to the new insulation Marussia have been testing.
There are two support rods running from the gearbox to the wastegate housing and then a pivoting brace dropping down from the wastegate housing to the turbine housing. This system will support (the not inconsiderable) mass of the Turbine and wastegate by creating an A-Frame with the exhausts, the pivot is required to allow for the large thermal growth of the Exhausts, when I looked into this a while ago I calc/estimated a 900° Inconel exhaust would grow by 5-15mm and if the turbine was to be solidly mounted something would quickly fail due to the stress created by this growth.
In the fourth picture I have crudely annotated the direction of rotation of the support rod and also the general direction of the exhaust growth, these nicely tally up allowing for the turbo to move freely as the exhaust expands, there are also bellows (green circle) in the secondary pipes to allow for misalignment and ease the stress in the turbine housing due to the lateral thermal growth on the two side of the exhaust. There will also no doubt be a hanger in the V to support the compressor and MGUH but this is not visible in any picture.
I have seen criticism that Ferrari are just using some exhaust wrap and this is simple stuff, what will need to be tested though is if the weight of the Wastegate and Turbine can still be supported by the exhaust once the temperature is increased (and so the strength of the inconel reduced) and also if the increased thermal growth due to the increased temperature has any negative effects. At 1000° Inconel has only a fraction of its strength when at room temperature.

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The final photo is just to highlight that the tailpipe is only attached solidly to the wastegate, the main exhaust pipe is only a loose push fit allowing the wastegate and exhsaut to move relative to each other without damaging the tailpipe. the tailpipe is so free flowing that no seal is needed.

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As a side note you can also see Mercedes using Exhaust Wrap on the joint in this photo.

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Hopefully somebody will find this of interest.
"A pretentious quote taken out of context to make me look deep" - Some old racing driver

wuzak
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Thanks Facts Only.

In overtake mode, does that mean that the team gets the maximum power from the engine (with low back pressure) but needs to use the full MGUK power drawing from the ES?

Obviously using that mode would reduce the amount of ES available for the remainder of the lap.

Do you have any feel for how much extra power could be used in the overtake mode?

I wonder if that mode was being used in Bahrain testing when Ferrari set top speeds of ~340km/h.

xpensive
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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wuzak wrote:Thanks Facts Only.

In overtake mode, does that mean that the team gets the maximum power from the engine (with low back pressure) but needs to use the full MGUK power drawing from the ES?
...
Anyways, with such a low boost as some 1 Bar, properly arranged software-wise, I believe that it should be possible to harvest some MGU-H power all around the track, even down the straights, and convey it directly to the MGU-K, saving ES power.

I think this is MHPE's secret, other than the turbine clutch of course. :lol:
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

gruntguru
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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wuzak wrote:In overtake mode, does that mean that the team gets the maximum power from the engine (with low back pressure) but needs to use the full MGUK power drawing from the ES?
Facts Only does say that the mode uses full MGUK power. Of course the MGUH is also drawing significant power from the ES so this mode depletes the ES very quickly.
je suis charlie

gruntguru
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xpensive wrote:Anyways, with such a low boost as some 1 Bar, properly arranged software-wise, I believe that it should be possible to harvest some MGU-H power all around the track, even down the straights, and convey it directly to the MGU-K, saving ES power.

I think this is MHPE's secret, other than the turbine clutch of course. :lol:
Where did you get 1 Bar? Facts only confirmed in a previous post that 3.5 bar (abs) is typical.

The overtake mode relies on zero exhaust back-pressure so there is no MGUH power available for harvest. The MGUH is actually drawing power from the ES to drive the supercharger.

Perhaps the rules should change to discourage this mode of operation. Increase MGUK power limit to say 200 kW while limiting flow from the ES to the MGUK to 120 kW. This would encourage teams to harvest from the MGUH under all conditions.
je suis charlie

bhall II
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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gruntguru wrote:[...]

Perhaps the rules should change to discourage this mode of operation. Increase MGUK power limit to say 200 kW while limiting flow from the ES to the MGUK to 120 kW. This would encourage teams to harvest from the MGUH under all conditions.
Why?

gruntguru
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Facts Only wrote: . . . . the pivot is required to allow for the large thermal growth of the Exhausts, when I looked into this a while ago I calc/estimated a 900° Inconel exhaust would grow by 5-15mm . . .
Surely the bellows takes up the growth and the turbine remains fixed relative to the engine?

If they are in fact running 3.5 bar MAP, the exhaust probably won't be getting that hot.

Does anyone have any indication of exhaust temps? Glowing pipes, discolouration?
Facts Only wrote:Hopefully somebody will find this of interest.
Great information Facts Only! Keep it coming.
je suis charlie

gruntguru
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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bhall II wrote:
gruntguru wrote:[...]Perhaps the rules should change to discourage this mode of operation. Increase MGUK power limit to say 200 kW while limiting flow from the ES to the MGUK to 120 kW. This would encourage teams to harvest from the MGUH under all conditions.
Why?
To produce the same (or more) power as overtake mode, but with greater efficiency (less fuel use).
Last edited by gruntguru on 02 Aug 2014, 13:26, edited 1 time in total.
je suis charlie

bhall II
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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I get that much. I guess I'm just confused by the current prevailing logic around F1 that typically says, "Hey, here's a novel approach. Let's get rid of it."

But, that's an entirely different discussion.

Carry on.

xpensive
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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gruntguru wrote: ...
Where did you get 1 Bar? Facts only confirmed in a previous post that 3.5 bar (abs) is typical.
...
3.5 bar abs is not needed to burn 27.8 g/s, that's preposterous and exactly what Honda used to burn 40 g/sec for producing 675 Hp from 1.5 liters a more than quarter of a century ago.

A little more than 2.0 absolute should be quite enough, depending on the Rpm of course.
Last edited by xpensive on 02 Aug 2014, 14:22, edited 1 time in total.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

xpensive
xpensive
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Facts Only wrote: ...
This system will support (the not inconsiderable) mass of the Turbine and wastegate by creating an A-Frame with the exhausts, the pivot is required to allow for the large thermal growth of the Exhausts, when I looked into this a while ago I calc/estimated a 900° Inconel exhaust would grow by 5-15mm and if the turbine was to be solidly mounted something would quickly fail due to the stress created by this growth.
...
Inconel has a thermal xpansion of 12.6 microns per meter and Kelvin, which means that a 600 mm long xhaust from Inconel will grow 6.7 mm from 20 to 900 C. It seems to me that you just picked a safe range of xpansion rather than calculating anything?
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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xpensive wrote:
gruntguru wrote: ...
Where did you get 1 Bar? Facts only confirmed in a previous post that 3.5 bar (abs) is typical.
...
I belong to those who don't take "Facts only's" nick literally, 3.5 bar abs is not needed to burn 27.8 g/s, that's preposterous
and xactly what Honda used to burn 40 g/sec for producing 675 Hp from 1.5 liters a quarter of a century ago.

A little more than 2.0 absolute should be quite enough, depending on the Rpm of course.
Yes
and iirc Honda were actually using only 2.5 bar abs to burn 40 gm/sec to produce 675 bhp a quarter of a century ago

Facts Only
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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gruntguru wrote:
Facts Only wrote: . . . . the pivot is required to allow for the large thermal growth of the Exhausts, when I looked into this a while ago I calc/estimated a 900° Inconel exhaust would grow by 5-15mm . . .
Surely the bellows takes up the growth and the turbine remains fixed relative to the engine?

If they are in fact running 3.5 bar MAP, the exhaust probably won't be getting that hot.

Does anyone have any indication of exhaust temps? Glowing pipes, discolouration?
Facts Only wrote:Hopefully somebody will find this of interest.
Great information Facts Only! Keep it coming.
I've got a couple of weeks spare at the moment so I'll try to do some annotated explanation of the exhausts including the Mercedes layout but in brief the bellows actually make things worse for movement as the pressure in the exhausts expands them.
The exhausts will be running at roughly 6-700c unwrapped and upto 1000c wrapped, the goal of the MGUH is to extract every bit of energy from the exhausts so the amount of heat and pressure contained in the primaries and secondaries is huge.
"A pretentious quote taken out of context to make me look deep" - Some old racing driver

Facts Only
Facts Only
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Joined: 03 Jul 2014, 10:25

Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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xpensive wrote:
gruntguru wrote: ...
Where did you get 1 Bar? Facts only confirmed in a previous post that 3.5 bar (abs) is typical.
...
I belong to those who don't take the nick "Facts only'" literally, 3.5 bar abs is not needed to burn 27.8 g/s, that's preposterous
and xactly what Honda used to burn 40 g/sec for producing 675 Hp from 1.5 liters a more than quarter of a century ago.

A little more than 2.0 absolute should be quite enough, depending on the Rpm of course.
Thank you for your knowledge of 25 year old designs.
"A pretentious quote taken out of context to make me look deep" - Some old racing driver

Facts Only
Facts Only
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Joined: 03 Jul 2014, 10:25

Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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xpensive wrote:
Facts Only wrote: ...
This system will support (the not inconsiderable) mass of the Turbine and wastegate by creating an A-Frame with the exhausts, the pivot is required to allow for the large thermal growth of the Exhausts, when I looked into this a while ago I calc/estimated a 900° Inconel exhaust would grow by 5-15mm and if the turbine was to be solidly mounted something would quickly fail due to the stress created by this growth.
...
Inconel has a thermal xpansion of 12.6 microns per meter and Kelvin, which means that a 600 mm long xhaust from Inconel will grow 6.7 mm from 20 to 900 C. It seems to me that you just picked a safe range of xpansion rather than calculating anything?
All exhausts are 600mm long are they? Perhaps the 5-15mm range was based on the range of exhaust lengths across the three manufactures (and even between different cylinders on the same engine) and the effects of bellows/slip joints etc.
"A pretentious quote taken out of context to make me look deep" - Some old racing driver