2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

[xpensive]

...
It might be a rumour spread by Mercedes to spook the opposition.
...

Doubt it, competition should be wiser than that, but ignorant journos, hell yeah!

[Moose]

...
If you believe the rumours, Mercedes will get an extra 60+hp for next season which will absolutely put them in teh range of 870-890hp combined.
...

Yeah right, 720 Hp from 27.8 g/sec, like a 45% thermal efficiency, it's the Nobel prize right there.

I don't get where you're getting 45% from.

0.0278 kg of fuel, with a density of 0.71kg/l has a volume of 0.03915493 litres.
0.03915493 l of fuel, with an energy density of 32.4MJ/l has 1.26861973 MJ of energy in it.
1.26861973 MW is 1701.24707 horse power

720 / 1701.24707 is 42.32% thermal efficiency.

[Cold Fussion]

...
If you believe the rumours, Mercedes will get an extra 60+hp for next season which will absolutely put them in teh range of 870-890hp combined.
...

Yeah right, 720 Hp from 27.8 g/sec, like a 45% thermal efficiency, it's the Nobel prize right there.

I don't get where you're getting 45% from.

0.0278 kg of fuel, with a density of 0.71kg/l has a volume of 0.03915493 litres.
0.03915493 l of fuel, with an energy density of 32.4MJ/l has 1.26861973 MJ of energy in it.
1.26861973 MW is 1701.24707 horse power

720 / 1701.24707 is 42.32% thermal efficiency.

He's using a low LHV of 43 MJ/kg.

[Moose]

He's using a low LHV of 43 MJ/kg.

Heh, and I thought I had used a relatively low one. If we want to stretch the boundaries, there are some fuels with energy densities around 36MJ/l, that would make the thermal efficiency of an engine producing 720 Hp only around 38-39%.

As you can see, assertions like "that's not possible, thermal efficiency wouldn't allow it" are somewhat spurious unless we know the exact energy density, and density of the fuel they use. We can establish an upper bound of reasonableness, using all the most favourable values, which gets us to 1900 Hp at 100% efficiency, and hence around 820 Hp being the upper bound on the amount of power that could produce, while being fueled that 27.8g/s of gasoline.

[garrett]

It surprises me Mercedes agreed with that.

They didn´t agree. They only agreed concerning the changes for 2015.

[Cold Fussion]

He's using a low LHV of 43 MJ/kg.

Heh, and I thought I had used a relatively low one. If we want to stretch the boundaries, there are some fuels with energy densities around 36MJ/l, that would make the thermal efficiency of an engine producing 720 Hp only around 38-39%.

As you can see, assertions like "that's not possible, thermal efficiency wouldn't allow it" are somewhat spurious unless we know the exact energy density, and density of the fuel they use. We can establish an upper bound of reasonableness, using all the most favourable values, which gets us to 1900 Hp at 100% efficiency, and hence around 820 Hp being the upper bound on the amount of power that could produce, while being fueled that 27.8g/s of gasoline.

I wouldn't say that. We can say with reasonable authority that the ICE isn't going to be 45% efficienct, and it's probably as unlikely that the fuel LHV is 50 MJ/kg. An ICE efficiency of 35-40% with a LHV of 45-50 MJ/kg gives us a decent range of numbers to play with.

[Moose]

He's using a low LHV of 43 MJ/kg.

Heh, and I thought I had used a relatively low one. If we want to stretch the boundaries, there are some fuels with energy densities around 36MJ/l, that would make the thermal efficiency of an engine producing 720 Hp only around 38-39%.

As you can see, assertions like "that's not possible, thermal efficiency wouldn't allow it" are somewhat spurious unless we know the exact energy density, and density of the fuel they use. We can establish an upper bound of reasonableness, using all the most favourable values, which gets us to 1900 Hp at 100% efficiency, and hence around 820 Hp being the upper bound on the amount of power that could produce, while being fueled that 27.8g/s of gasoline.

I wouldn't say that. We can say with reasonable authority that the ICE isn't going to be 45% efficienct, and it's probably as unlikely that the fuel LHV is 50 MJ/kg. An ICE efficiency of 35-40% with a LHV of 45-50 MJ/kg gives us a decent range of numbers to play with.

None of the above assumptions were used in the above calculation. 820hp was the result of a computation based on 42% efficiency, 36MJ/l, 0.71kg/l.

42% is pretty high, hence why I stated this was an "upper bound". To me, 720hp appears to be well within the realms of possibility, if you assume a half decent fuel.

[ringo]

I think i've stated before the maximum expected power from the MGUH as being 240hp.
That is where mercedes or maybe honda will see their advantage. Currently they maybe are extracting half of that; 120hp.
This horsepower can do well to the self sustaining power of the PU. The KERS can deliver it's output without having to dip into the battery store as much.
And this can also lead to weight saving if the team finds they can use smaller batteries.

What i found with the 2014 ferrari package, and i think most will notice this from their engine pictures, is that their wastegate and wg piping are very huge. Suggesting that the turbine and MGUH match wasn't very good and that they were compromised for the ICE backpressure. Ferrari has a very good ICE, maybe the most powerful, but their ERS are limited.
Their fuel consumption is also proof of this. Mercedes had it better because they don't have the stronger ICE.

So yes, mercedes will gain in power for 2015, maybe some on the ICE side and the rest on the ERS side. It may well be average power over a lap that they mean. However i feel that once ferrari changes their PU philosphy by losing on the ICE, the part that cosumes the fuel and tipping that power balance towards the ERS, they can match mercedes.
The only draw back with ERS biased PU is weight and lower ICE power, as we've seen in Abu Dhabi when Nico lost his. But it's basically the best combination for this formula.

I think we can stop doing efficiency calculations. The engines are between 580 to 620hp and MGUH can be 120hp to a theoretical 240hp. There is a big power disparity in those two ranges. The engine makers will be teetering between those two to find the right balance for their PUs.

For all we know self sustaining power can look like this:

ferrari has 600hp with 90hp = 690hp
Mercedes has 580hp with 150 = 730hp
Renault has 570hp with 130 = 700hp

[Juzh]

For all we know self sustaining power can look like this:

ferrari has 600hp with 90hp = 690hp
Mercedes has 580hp with 150 = 730hp
Renault has 570hp with 130 = 700hp

Based on absolutely nothing.

[ringo]

You are new to thread obviously..
Go educate yourself on previous posts. I have a basis on all numbers i post here.

Those three were examples of how things can look in terms of power differences of the systems. They aren't actual numbers for specific engine makers, but the number range is quite realist and accurate to some calculations that were preformed long before we even had power numbers quoted from the engine makers.

This is the reality, there is no super magical nobel prize winning efficiency miracle.

[mrluke]

I think i've stated before the maximum expected power from the MGUH as being 240hp.
That is where mercedes or maybe honda will see their advantage. Currently they maybe are extracting half of that; 120hp.
This horsepower can do well to the self sustaining power of the PU. The KERS can deliver it's output without having to dip into the battery store as much.
And this can also lead to weight saving if the team finds they can use smaller batteries.

What i found with the 2014 ferrari package, and i think most will notice this from their engine pictures, is that their wastegate and wg piping are very huge. Suggesting that the turbine and MGUH match wasn't very good and that they were compromised for the ICE backpressure. Ferrari has a very good ICE, maybe the most powerful, but their ERS are limited.
Their fuel consumption is also proof of this. Mercedes had it better because they don't have the stronger ICE.

So yes, mercedes will gain in power for 2015, maybe some on the ICE side and the rest on the ERS side. It may well be average power over a lap that they mean. However i feel that once ferrari changes their PU philosphy by losing on the ICE, the part that cosumes the fuel and tipping that power balance towards the ERS, they can match mercedes.
The only draw back with ERS biased PU is weight and lower ICE power, as we've seen in Abu Dhabi when Nico lost his. But it's basically the best combination for this formula.

I think we can stop doing efficiency calculations. The engines are between 580 to 620hp and MGUH can be 120hp to a theoretical 240hp. There is a big power disparity in those two ranges. The engine makers will be teetering between those two to find the right balance for their PUs.

For all we know self sustaining power can look like this:

ferrari has 600hp with 90hp = 690hp
Mercedes has 580hp with 150 = 730hp
Renault has 570hp with 130 = 700hp

What??

The MGU-k output is capped you cant use 240bhp from the mgu h.

I dont understand the point you are making about ferrari. Yes they have much bigger WG and pipework, this fits with the rumor that they have a max power mode where the mgu-h is bypassed completely, the compressor driven entirely by the energy store while the ES is also powering the mgu-k.

If anything the large wg pipe suggests that they are making far more boost than they can use. Or to put it another way they cant use the boost they are making, i.e. they cant make the engine run as lean as others.

Ferrari's fuel consumption could be down to almost anything it isnt proof that their ERS is weaker than the other teams, it could be that the ICE is less efficient and that they have the best ERS.

[ringo]

I know it is capped.
But there is unlimited storage to the battery.

Not all MGUH can produce the max KERS output.

What i have said is that 240hp is possible to harvest. You can send to the KERS and to the battery, obviously at the capped power amount.
If you notice, i did not state 240hp in the self sustaining examples.

Your point about ICE being less efficient is not very likely in this day and age. It's like insulting Ferrari's intelligence. The MGUH and Turbine are loads on the engine first and foremost, these loads affect the back pressure on the engine as was being discussed earlier. It is not likely they have an over sized compressor or undersized. The turbine is actually sized how they intended it to be. That's what i'm highlighting, their have a certain philosophy about the ICE taking priority and it's not the best path.
Their MGUH being less powerful is a smaller load on the turbine, than say the Merc's own. Hence where the MGUH has taken it's maximum power, then the turbine will continue to accelerate. For steady running the waste gates will open.
And they will let out much more mass flow than say a Merce MGUH of a higher capacity that can load the turbine more.

[Brian Coat]

Ringo, I hope I understand what you are saying but you are not actually suggesting 240 hp is likely for a real 2014/15 MGU-H are you? or have I misunderstood?

[gruntguru]

Ringo at 14.7 AFR there is only about 140 hp available at the turbine. At leaner mixtures this goes up to perhaps 180. Of this, about 100 hp is required to drive the supercharger leaving 80 hp. No way anybody has 240.

[Harsha]

The Complete Overview of 2014 Engines (thanks to RCE)