2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

[M05F3T]

Redirect me if I've missed the answer to this already.

How Is the MGU-K mechanically linked to the engine? I mean how can it provide extra power and regeneratively brake?

I'm kind of new to learning about engines in depth for my EPQ.

[Facts Only]

Redirect me if I've missed the answer to this already.

How Is the MGU-K mechanically linked to the engine? I mean how can it provide extra power and regeneratively brake?

I'm kind of new to learning about engines in depth for my EPQ.

Its geared into the crank gear set at the front of the engine which also drives the camshafts, oil pump and water pump

[M05F3T]

Redirect me if I've missed the answer to this already.

How Is the MGU-K mechanically linked to the engine? I mean how can it provide extra power and regeneratively brake?

I'm kind of new to learning about engines in depth for my EPQ.

Its geared into the crank gear set at the front of the engine which also drives the camshafts, oil pump and water pump

So from this I assume it is always in constant rpm with the engine and the controller just decides when to harvest and boost?

Thanks for the quick reply.

[Facts Only]

Redirect me if I've missed the answer to this already.

How Is the MGU-K mechanically linked to the engine? I mean how can it provide extra power and regeneratively brake?

I'm kind of new to learning about engines in depth for my EPQ.

Its geared into the crank gear set at the front of the engine which also drives the camshafts, oil pump and water pump

So from this I assume it is always in constant rpm with the engine and the controller just decides when to harvest and boost?

Thanks for the quick reply.

Yes

[Brian Coat]

I'd be interest in people's views on the combustion pre-chamber stated* as being used by Mercedes on this forum and elsewhere.

*translation: speculated / guessed

The potential merits/demerits of lean operation has been discussed on here before at er ... some considerable length.

Charge stratification has been discussed as a potential combustion strategy but it is hard to achieve / control at high speed and load so ideas for containing the rich pre-mixture in a pre-chamber seem worthy of discussion.

What do people think?

[gruntguru]

Not likely IMO. Pre-chamber designs are inherently lossy due to high velocities in the connecting duct. I wouldn't rule out a "tiny" pre-chamber around the spark plug - but not including the injector with similar function to the http://www.mahle-powertrain.com/en/mahl ... /index.jsp Mahle Jet Ignition system. Note that the Mahle system utilises an additional injector which F1 rules do not permit. The effect could be approached by locating the pre-chamber in the spray field of the existing direct injector.

[toraabe]

I have read that the MGU-K revs at max 50000 rpm..

Redirect me if I've missed the answer to this already.

How Is the MGU-K mechanically linked to the engine? I mean how can it provide extra power and regeneratively brake?

I'm kind of new to learning about engines in depth for my EPQ.

Its geared into the crank gear set at the front of the engine which also drives the camshafts, oil pump and water pump

So from this I assume it is always in constant rpm with the engine and the controller just decides when to harvest and boost?

Thanks for the quick reply.

[stevesingo]

So what effect will the altitude in Mexico have on the performance of the turbo and therefore MGU-H?

Will the turbo need to run at higher rpm to create the appropriate mass airflow for the ICE and will this have an effect on the MGU-H?

[Tommy Cookers]

So what effect will the altitude in Mexico have on the performance of the turbo and therefore MGU-H?
Will the turbo need to run at higher rpm to create the appropriate mass airflow for the ICE and will this have an effect on the MGU-H?

good question !
the Air Density thread 19 Dec 2012 P16 in the Aero, Chassis & Tyres section should be seen by all - and thanks, Hollus
it also has links to earlier posts

NOTE TO SELF - what density has Hollus used ?
(there's USA Standard and International Standard Atmosphere - based on mid-latitudes)
but also Reference Atmospheres (latitude and season-specific) .....
these show in this case significantly less density fall with altitude than does Standard Atmosphere

the Mexico GP altitude is 2285 m approx 7500' (latitude about 20 deg N)
in October mean atmospheric density there is around 79% of the sea-level value
and around 76% of a NW European sea level value
so less DF, less drag, less cooling including lower coolant BP

my guess is that they don't have enough margin of rpm mechanically or mgu-h electrically to restore sea-level boost and power
because Mexico was not envisaged (and would anyway be rather discounted for design)
but for the race they don't need full sea-level power ? since that power often cannot be fully used because of the 100 kg fuel limit
presumably different engines makes will be affected differently

http://www.braeunig.us/space/pdf/Atmosphere_0-90.pdf

[stevesingo]

So,

If the compressor needs to turn a higher rpm in order to generate the required boost there maybe a danger of running too close to the maximum MGU-H rpm and therefore the ICE will be air limited. This would only be the case if they are not fuel limited by the 100kg limit / 71laps= 1.41kg/lap.

Is it possible there maybe the need to apply more load to the MGU-H in order to keep MGU-H rpm below the limit and therefore the MGU-H may be more effective?

[Tommy Cookers]

my guess is that there would be little difference
there's an element of turbine power tending to increase (for a given 'boost'/MAP), due to the lower atmospheric pressure
but the power taken in compressing to the given 'boost' would need to increase

that is little difference relative to the loss of the usual full race power and that loss affecting some engines more than others

it's nice to speculate how the engines and cars would be different if all races were at 7500' altitude

[wuzak]

In effect the turbo-compound engine will not compensate for altitude as well as a normal turbo. Where the normal turbo has more exhaust energy than it needs to run the compressor, allowing it to adjust, the turbo-compound uses all its exhaust energy, and so suffers in the same way that a naturally aspirated engine does.

To maintain the same inlet conditions the compressor will need to run a higher pressure ratio, which means more power is required to drive it and thus less power is available to the MGUH. Total power will be less.

With the exception of the ERS taking energy from the ES to power the MGUK, or in qualifying mode.

[gruntguru]

If the ambient air pressure is 80% of sea level, the compressor PR will need to increase by 25% eg for 3 bar MAP the required PR is approx 3 at sea level and 3.75 at altitude. 25% increase in PR requires 12% increase in compressor speed and 25% increase in compressor power. If this is achievable with the existing compressor and turbine, the massflow will be the same and the turbine power will also increase (by a lower percentage - about 17%). This increase in turbine power is still greater than the increase in compressor requirement. The actual numbers are approximately +17kW compressor and +25kW turbine, so there is actually about 8kW of extra power available.

All this assumes that the compressor and turbine are matched to the new operating point - which is very unlikely.

[stevesingo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndrdwPFKSj8


Looking at the telemetry at 30:24 I see 3.71Bar Boost (Abs?) at 114,456rpm (turbine rpm). That does not leave much more head room for increase turbine/compressor speed before we get to the 125000rpm limit.

So I guess Honda will be screwed.

[Tommy Cookers]

using Reference Atmosphere tables gave me an October Mexico GP atmospheric density of 79% of October Mexico sea level density
and about 76% of NW Europe sea level density (and Hollus I think elsewhere uses 76% for Mexico GP)

76% implies at least 15% more turbo rpm
76% when almost all races fall within the 90% - 100% range
there seems to be good reason to design the mgu-h and turbo around this range

though a Mr Hamilton has just mentioned a S African GP
(Kyalami is about 26 deg S, at about 1465m 4800' altitude, and owned by Porsche)

anyway, at these altitudes there's no need for fuel saving (if the turbo and/or mgu-h rpm are designed only for normal altitude)