2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

[stevesingo]

Thoughts on this...

http://en.f1i.com/news/55979-honda-expl ... spend.html

[godlameroso]

When they say plasma, they mean boosting a conventional spark plug with a capacitor. It's an old hot rodder trick.

..?..

This is the Mahle quote in full............
""this results in the formation of plasma jets that reach the piston primarily at the outer edge and ignite the remainder of the mixture. While ignition normally takes place in the centre of the cylinder, with Mahle Jet Ignition it essentially takes place from the outside toward the inside. This allows significantly better combustion of the fuel mixture. The result: more power with considerably less residue.""

They are referring to hot plasma jets,formed by passing through the annular holes in the bottom of the pre chamber, squirting into the main volume and igniting that charge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyEOOXbshQc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pydeAUFQyKI

This is what I thought they meant.

[ringo]

Male is just referring to the stream of ignited gas coming out of the jets as a plasma.
It was not said that a plasma is being used to ignite the air and fuel mixture initially.

Anyhow, we need to consider that there are two injectors. but the placment of the second injector is taking advantage of a loop hole.
Or another way for the Mahle setup to work is by multiple injections from the pre chamber injector before ignition.
The first injections would fill the main chamber and then the last injections would be ignited by the spark plug in the pre chamber.

[godlameroso]

They could have a multi-stage injector nozzle that only allows a certain spray pattern under a pressure threshold, and transitions to a different spray pattern after said threshold. Granted you'd have to constrain it within certain variables like crank angle, valve timing events, ignition timing etc.

[hollus]

From wiki.

A flame (from Latin flamma) is the visible, gaseous part of a fire. It is caused by a highly exothermic reaction taking place in a thin zone. Very hot flames are hot enough to have ionized gaseous components of sufficient density to be considered plasma.

[gruntguru]

5.11.1 ~ The use of Plasma , Laser , or other high frequency ignition techniques is forbidden.

From the Mahle text...

"this results in the formation of plasma jets that reach the piston primarily at the outer edge and ignite the remainder of the mixture."

So.. If the Mahle system is igniting the main charge with plasma jets .... Is it Legal ?.

The primary source of "ignition" is a simple spark plug. Even if the jets are "plasma" the pre-chamber doesn't do anything special to the charge within, it simply burns like any other SI engine.

It is also clear that the jets are merely propagating - not initiating the flame.

[PlatinumZealot]

Some people are confusing how the term plasma is applied. One could argue that fire is a form of plasma yes but it very iffy.. When the people say plasma ignition they are refering to method of using a highly charged electrode that makes a strong arc that gas is passed over. The gas gets extemely hot and also electricaly charged. The gas is generally non reacting usually an innert gas. You can blow the gas into the chamber from there.. This does not happen in the TJI system. The TJI spark plug is a typical spark plug that ignites a stationary mixture of fuel and air... There is no gas passing over the arc and there is actaul combustion. Fire.

Anyway i have said this once and i will sya it again. There is a two injector loop hole. The rules as written only constrain one direct injector and that all fuel must be delivered between intake and exhaust valve. This is clear opening to implement an aditional indirect injector in the pre chamber.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indirect_injection

[Edis]

Some people are confusing how the term plasma is applied. One could argue that fire is a form of plasma yes but it very iffy.. When the people say plasma ignition they are refering to method of using a highly charged electrode that makes a strong arc that gas is passed over. The gas gets extemely hot and also electricaly charged. The gas is generally non reacting usually an innert gas. You can blow the gas into the chamber from there.. This does not happen in the TJI system. The TJI spark plug is a typical spark plug that ignites a stationary mixture of fuel and air... There is no gas passing over the arc and there is actaul combustion. Fire.

Anyway i have said this once and i will sya it again. There is a two injector loop hole. The rules as written only constrain one direct injector and that all fuel must be delivered between intake and exhaust valve. This is clear opening to implement an aditional indirect injector in the pre chamber.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indirect_injection

Plasma is the fourth state of matter (the other three being solid, liquid and gas). Plasma is similar to gas, but with free electrons which makes is electrically conductive. A gas that is heated to a high temperature or subjected to a high magnetic field can become a plasma.

[Brian Coat]

I think it's pushing the boundaries of poetic licence to call them "plasma jets" because they will also include unburned and burned gases, however at these temperatures the ion density will be pretty high, so at least some of the jet is plasma but the same applies to a candle flame!

[Brian Coat]

Anyway i have said this once and i will sya it again. There is a two injector loop hole. The rules as written only constrain one direct injector and that all fuel must be delivered between intake and exhaust valve. This is clear opening to implement an aditional indirect injector in the pre chamber.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indirect_injection

Maybe.

This is a plausible enough line to take and certainly worth a go, but the FIA could argue that you are applying a diesel engine definition of indirect injection to a gasoline engine. In gasoline engines indirect injection usually refers to an injector upstream of the intake valve, as described in the Wikipedia link you posted. You could respectfully counter-argue that they are confusing what they meant with the rule that they wrote, which is open to at least two perfectly legitimate interpretations.

So it might be legal or they might have a single injector system that works.

[djos]

Maybe.

This is a plausible enough line to take and certainly worth a go, but the FIA could argue that you are applying a diesel engine definition of indirect injection to a gasoline engine. In gasoline engines indirect injection usually refers to an injector upstream of the intake valve, as described in the Wikipedia link you posted. You could respectfully counter-argue that they are confusing what they meant with the rule that they wrote, which is open to at least two perfectly legitimate interpretations.

So it might be legal or they might have a single injector system that works.

Would a single injector with 2 controllable nozzles be legal? One would obviously need to be piped into the main combustion chamber.

[PlatinumZealot]

Maybe.

This is a plausible enough line to take and certainly worth a go, but the FIA could argue that you are applying a diesel engine definition of indirect injection to a gasoline engine. In gasoline engines indirect injection usually refers to an injector upstream of the intake valve, as described in the Wikipedia link you posted. You could respectfully counter-argue that they are confusing what they meant with the rule that they wrote, which is open to at least two perfectly legitimate interpretations.

So it might be legal or they might have a single injector system that works.

Would a single injector with 2 controllable nozzles be legal? One would obviously need to be piped into the main combustion chamber.

Now you blur the lines between what is considered a single injector or two...

Taking a stab at it, I think that one injector may have multiple nozzles but it can only have a single plunger going to all those nozzles. Even still, it should be possible to design the side branch injector using one pintle. Using a two or three stage stage plunger perhaps.

[djos]

Now you blur the lines between what is considered a single injector or two...

Taking a stab at it, I think that one injector may have multiple nozzles but it can only have a single plunger going to all those nozzles. Even still, it should be possible to design the side branch injector using one pintle. Using a two or three stage stage plunger perhaps.

Yeah that's the sort of thing I was wondering about, it'd be great if the FiA would publish tech drawings of approved parts wouldnt it.

[ian_s]

i keep coming back to the change in pressure within the cylinder during the intake and compression strokes, and how that could be used to influence the injector.

during the intake stroke the pressure in the cylinder will be below 3 bar, maybe 4, but at the end of the compression stroke the pressure will be many times greater.

[gruntguru]

The change in cylinder pressure will slightly affect the flow through the injector but not much else. eg

During intake - cylinder pressure = say 3.5 bar, injection pressure = 500 bar, differential = 496.5 bar.
After compression - cylinder pressure = say 40 bar, injection pressure = 500 bar, differential = 460 bar.

This equates to a reduction in driving (differential) press of approx. 7.35% which will reduce flow rate by about 3.7%.