Mass damper / engine deterioration

[adam2007]

whats the deterioration of a engine over 3 races? maybe tenth a lap for each race sound relistic?
Also how does a mass damper work i have rough idear, still aloud to use it or fully banned in 2006 after renault used it?

[Sayshina]

Mass dampers are totally banned, the FIA considers them movable aero devices. Don't ask me how they fit that definition, but them's the rules.

Hmm, how to explain one. Allow me to change the venue to something simpler. Earthquakes shake the ground at a certain frequency. Everything, everything, has a natural frequency. Think swing set. If the pusher pushes the swinger right as he's coming down that'll stop everything quickly. If the pusher pushes at the right time, every time, the swinger can really get moving.

So, that's why we see one building fall to pieces, while the one right next to it is barely damaged. The ground shakes in frequency, and that frequency happens to harmonize with that building, and boom.

So, we can't really do much to change the frequency of the earthquake, so let's see if we can change the frequency of the building. It turns out there are several ways to manage this, from cables running through the building attacked to hydraulic rams, to using a mass damper.

You pick a floor, usually something like 2/3 of the way up the building. You place a gigantic mass on that floor, on top of bearings that allow it to slide around more or less freely. Now the ground shakes, the building harmonizes, starts swinging back and forth, just like before. But that stupid mass slides around all on it's own, and every once in a while it bangs into the sides of the building. It could theoretically wind up with the same frequency as the building which would be a disaster, but we're not stupid so we made sure it has a different freq. And now whenever it bangs into the side it tends to do it right when the swinger is coming down, so it screws up the swing just like it did on the swingset.

Obviously, it's a lot more complex than just that, but hopefully that'll give you a good visual image of what's going on. On a car, it works the same way. The tire has a natural frequency, and when it encounters certain road conditions it will want to start bouncing up and down. You design the mass damper to act like the pusher, pushing at the wrong time, right when the swinger is coming down. I know you've done this, so you know it isn't even that hard to screw up the swing. It doesn't take that much force, which means it doesn't take that much mass either.

Now the engines. I can't give you a number, as teams are VERY secretive about that. But I can say it will depend mostly on how hard the engine was used. So Vetels current engine will almost certainly be in a lot better shape than Buttons right now.

Normally, what kills engines is using them outside their parameters. So a very good way to kill one is to accidentally take a lower gear than you intended. This will send the revs way over the limit, and for quite a long time, as the car is now driving the engine. In fact, in a race engine that usually causes a pretty spectacular failure, with parts flying everywhere.

It's hard to make that particular condition happen in a current F1 car, but there are lots of smaller things that can all add up. Just being stuck behind someone will put a lot of stress on your engine.

[Just_a_fan]

I remember speaking to a Cosworth chap in the back of a garage of a F1 team a few years ago (V10 days). He reckoned the engine lost c.50bhp over the course of a weekend. Back then the things were rebuilt all the time so current engines may be designed to maintain power levels for longer.

[donskar]

Surely one of our more obsessive members can begin to answer the question about deteriorating engine power: top speed of a team's two cars at the same circuit under the same conditions when one has a fresh engine and the other an engine a race or two old would be one place to start.

[Sayshina]

...the question about deteriorating engine power: top speed of a team's two cars at the same circuit under the same conditions when one has a fresh engine and the other an engine a race or two old would be one place to start.

Even that wouldn't be definitive. You're assuming both drivers are going to go all out and use the engine to its maximum, when realistically one driver is almost always going to have an easier race for whatever reason. Also, the fresh engine driver might try to save a little bit in order to have slightly more in the bag come the last engine.

[adam2007]

The tuned mass damper was introduced as part of the suspension system by Renault, on its 2005 F1 car (the R25), at the 2005 Brazilian Grand Prix. It was deemed to be legal at first, and it was in use up to the 2006 German Grand Prix.

At Hockenheim, the mass damper was deemed illegal by the FIA, since the mass wasn't rigidly attached to the chassis and, due to the influence it had on the pitch attitude of the car, which in turn significantly affected the gap under the car and hence the ground effects of the car, to be a movable aerodynamic device and hence as a consequence, to be illegally influencing the performance of the aerodynamics

[adam2007]

The engine and transmission of a modern Formula One car are some of the most highly stressed pieces of machinery on the planet, and the competition to have the most power on the grid is still intense.<br /><br />Traditionally, the development of racing engines has always held to the dictum of the great automotive engineer Ferdinand Porsche that the perfect race car crosses the finish line in first place and then falls to pieces. Although this is no longer strictly true - regulations now require engines to last more than one race weekend - designing modern Formula One engines remains a balancing act between the power that can be extracted and the need for just enough durability.<br /><br />Engine power outputs in Formula One racing are also a fascinating insight into how far the sport has moved on. In the 1950s Formula One cars were managing specific power outputs of around 100 bhp / litre (about what a modern 'performance' road car can manage now). That figure rose steadily until the arrival of the 'turbo age' of 1.5 litre turbo engines, some of which were producing anything up to 750 bhp / litre. Then, once the sport returned to normal aspiration in 1989 that figure fell back, before steadily rising again. The 'power battle' of the last few years saw outputs creep back towards the 1000 bhp barrier, some teams producing more than 300 bhp / litre in 2005, the final year of 3 litre V10 engines. Since 2006, the regulations have required the use of 2.4 litre V8 engines, with power outputs falling around 20 percent.<br /><br />Revving to a limited 18,000 RPM, a modern Formula One engine will consume a phenomenal 650 litres of air every second, with race fuel consumption typically around the 75 l/100 km (4 mpg) mark. Revving at such massive speeds equates to an accelerative force on the pistons of nearly 9000 times gravity. Unsurprisingly, engine-related failures remain one of the most common causes of retirements in races.<br /><br />Modern Formula One engines owe little except their fundamental design of cylinders, pistons and valves to road-car engines.

[Tomba]

1. I believe this thread should be two threads. Mass dampers and engines are two things completely different.
2. Adam, why are you asking questions that you eventually answer yourself with content copied from somewhere on the web?
3. There are threads already about these things. Please use the search functionality on the site and in the forum.

[adam2007]

1. I believe this thread should be two threads. Mass dampers and engines are two things completely different.
2. Adam, why are you asking questions that you eventually answer yourself with content copied from somewhere on the web?
3. There are threads already about these things. Please use the search functionality on the site and in the forum.

1. Well you belive wrong as i wanted a answer from a question i asked
2. I found the info i needed and posted for other members to see

[richard_leeds]

Yes, this should be two separate threads

It is a good idea to quote the source of copied text so other can learn. It also is courtesy to give credit to those who wrote the original words...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuned_mass ... Motorsport
http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/under ... /5280.html