P.U.R.E Appointment

[xpensive]

I agree WB, the more I think about this, the more likely Red Bull seems, as you underlined yourself, engines is an area which is not covered by the RRA and Mateschiz is obviously no stranger to spend in heavy doses to get what he wants.

This could mean the Peugeot connection is just a coincident, they might brand the Engine "Red Bull" in order to have a direct connection between Newey and the engine designers, making sure that every little detail is without compromise?

Why Pollock then? I have been thinking about that and it could be that there's a relation between Newey and him since the early JV days with Williams, it's also likely that they knew each other from his CART connections with Bobby Rahal.

But the real connection is probably between Newey and Christian Contzen, who ran Renault Sport during those successful years with Williams through the 90s, while as you say, Pollock is just a neutral figurehead, the promoting type that he is.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Pollock does not have anyone lined up to use their engines.

This from an interview released this morning.

"The minimum is two, there's no question about it. A minimum of two teams and two good teams, if possible.
And the maximum number... if we have to supply a lot more teams then we will gear up to do it; it is not exactly our immediate wish because I think you also have to be very realistic about it and know that we are a new company.
The people working in the company are not new, they are veterans in the field of Formula 1 engine supply, but to supply another team would just require more organisation. But as long as we know early enough, we will be happy.

So he confirms its good teams he is after...Quantifiable in any way?
Williams and Sauber?
He also confirms my doubts about this team being able to match the big 3 from the off. No disgrace in that, just that it is a new venture and will take time to get a head of steam.

Nobody can say for sure.

But if I had to put money on it, PURE engines will not be present in either McLaren or Red Bull in 2014.

[WilliamsF1]

PURE for now is a customer engine as Renault is now. They are not going to pay anyone to run their engines, rather they would like to be paid for it.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

#-o PURE for now is a customer engine as Renault is now. They are not going to pay anyone to run their engines, rather they would like to be paid for it.

From all the information we have at the moment, this is a very logical assumption.

[munudeges]

The fact that they have no one lined up to be customers should tell you all you need to know. These operations always know who their customers and partners will be and what their business model is and they're not going to tell you what it is. They obviously have some serious backing.

Given the very experienced people being recruited, Simon being poached from the FIA, the facilities of Mecachrome and IFP and being on the inside with Peugeot I'll risk repeating myself that this is not a Cosworth operation that will be supplying HRT and/or Virgin. The question then remains just what car their engines are going to be in the back of given that Cosworth are producing a V6 and it's not apparent what those cars would be.

I'm coming around to the idea of it possibly being Red Bull. I wondered what their possible relationship with Renault would be from 2014, but it could be that this will be Red Bull's engine division. It smells more like a Red Bull and Adrian Newey set up than a McLaren one because of the apparent secrecy and careful recruiting behind it - who is putting up the money and who is actually backing it. Peugeot might well be involved but I don't think the real story ends there.

[xpensive]

WB indeed has his moments, I have to give him that. It might be that there is some truth to Horners claims of feeling underpowered and that Red Bull is just not comfortable with relying on Renault to take on MHPE for 2014 and beyond.

In particular with Renault's strategy over the past years seems to be to compete with Cosworth for the minnows, surely both Mateschitz and Newey wants a different kind of priority, now that they are the team to beat and then some?

The mo is also typical Mateschitz, only go for the best and pay whatever the cost, I find it highly unlikely that someone with the less than impeccable reputation of Pollock could recruit the likes Contzen, Baudy and Simon for a song?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

So you have gone from this being Peugeot, to McLaren suppliers and now red bull?
Change your mind much x?

[xpensive]

So you have gone from this being Peugeot, to McLaren suppliers and now red bull?
Change your mind much x?

You forget VW/Audi JET, bear with me for a minute and I will try and xplain how I figure now after WB, believe it or not, opened my eyes to the whole enchillada;

I think the entire project started out as the long rumored deal between Red Bull and VW/Audi, where the design and production was to be outsourced to Contzen's team and Mecachrome. However, Piech had a change of heart and Matechitz decided to pursue it on his own, enter PURE/Pollock and possibly Peugeot as a replacement for VW/Audi.

Too far fetched for you JET?

[WhiteBlue]

The mo is also typical Mateschitz, only go for the best and pay whatever the cost, I find it highly unlikely that someone with the less than impeccable reputation of Pollock could recruit the likes Contzen, Baudy and Simon for a song?

That's what made me smell a rat in the first place. Mateschitz's modus operandi is exactly like you see it in PURE. He started with sponsoring ond owning part of Sauber, then his F1 man Marko had a huge dispute with Peter over Räikkönen/Bernoldi as driver. He pulled out of Sauber and bought himself Jaguar. He staffed the new team with Newey. Nobody saw it coming but soon after this he also bought Minardi just to have two more seats for driver development. Despite owning two teams and being successful he felt that Red Bull wasn't sufficiently covered by the media. He went ahead and bought himself a TV station that covers Europe via Astra satellite. When he was asked if he would buy an engine company in order to be prepared for 2014 he said he would do it with a partner or alone if it made sense. The man doesn't wait a long time if money can solve his problem. And typically he buys himself only the best people to really run his companies with a PR mouthpiece for the front job, so that the important people can do their job unhassled. I would not exclude that Mateschitz is behind PURE and would not bet any money against it.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Plausible as anything else out there at the moment.

But.

They have just had 2 "double" years of winning with Renault power. Renault has been looking at various ways to escape f1, having just offloaded the team.
For me at least, it's makes more sense to buy renaults chatillon operation as this concern has a record of producing top notch engines.
I'm certain Renault could be persuaded to let it go, given Charles Ghosn's nature of sell offs and mergers. He's a cost cutter at heart.

Or would you spend more cash to get an unknown quantity?
Hell even getting Cosworth and putting the names mentioned in place would be easier.

Seems a very long winded way of doing things. It should also be noted that mateschitz bought existing teams, and stocked them with staff of his choice.

[xpensive]

It might seem that way JET, but with Renault and Cosworth comes other obligations, to other teams and even to different racing categories. I believe that what both Mateschitz and Newey wants is xclusivety, able to tailor the engine and all other conditions that comes with it to their own liking, like an Anglo-Austrian Ferrariesque team if you like? The former could probably buy Pirelli as well if he felt that would make sense.

And as WB stated, engines are not covered by the RRA and Mateschitz is in a position to spend just about as much as he likes on this surely tax-deductable marketing activity.

[Pup]

"McLaren has had absolutely no contact with PURE for many months," said a McLaren spokesman. "Moreover, the contact we did have with PURE, many months ago, was of an entirely informal nature, and was merely a courtesy gesture."

Last November, McLaren's managing director Jonathan Neale had to dismiss reports that the outfit was trying to lure Honda back into F1.

"That is all wide of the mark," said Neale about the Honda speculation. "We are very happy with and enjoying our partnership with Mercedes-Benz. We are not quite sure where that story came from in truth.

"But I can stop the rumour and say that we are entirely focused on our Mercedes-Benz relationship. It is a long one spanning many wins and championships and long may it continue."

McLaren's current engine deal is understood to run until the end of 2015.

[munudeges]

Regardless of whether a PURE and McLaren link-up is on the cards or not McLaren are certainly not going to be with Mercedes for 2014 onwards. They are simply not going to get the primary attention for a new engine design that Mercedes will naturally be giving to their own team, and if McLaren wants to stay winning races that cannot happen. Until then it is a case of sweet-talking regarding Mercedes and telling everyone that everything is rosy.

As for Red Bull and PURE, it sounds slightly the most plausible as to how they've gone about doing things in the past. Red Bull are most certainly not going to buy Renault's engine facilities. It wouldn't be particularly subtle. Best to keep the air of mystery that surrounds PURE right now. Newey has long had an uneasy relationship with engine suppliers regarding his demands and he doesn't like being told no by them.

This is definitely an exclusive engine operation for a particular team. What was most curious was how they were in with the four banger idea long before anything about them became public.

[xpensive]

...
This is definitely an exclusive engine operation for a particular team. What was most curious was how they were in with the four banger idea long before anything about them became public.

Even more interesting is how MrT released Gilles Simon to PURE without notice as soon as the V6 concept was decided.

While the relation between Newey and Contzen is obvious, I'm less sure about what's with Mateschitz and MrT/Simon?

[Giblet]

Regardless of whether a PURE and McLaren link-up is on the cards or not McLaren are certainly not going to be with Mercedes for 2014 onwards.

You feel they are going to leave the contract early? Both parties agreeing or one of them instating an out clause?