Formula E

[mzso]

http://www.speedhunters.com/2014/09/mon ... -e-runner/

670bhp for ~10 minutes.

Why does formula E only have 200 for 10 minutes?

Can we expect a big boost for next year?

I'm suspecting because they went for an F1 style "toycar" formula. Which isn't well matched with current tech levels of batteries.
I think they should have went for larger stronger cars with more batteries like this and other pikes peak prototypes.
See also: Mitsubishi MiEV Evolution III, TMG EV P002

I also see no reason they should stick to open wheel. Wheels covered by the chassis would probably be more aerodynamic/efficient. Plus safer. The Heidfeld-Prost incident would probably have been a slight grazing for example.

[Andres125sx]

http://www.speedhunters.com/2014/09/mon ... -e-runner/

670bhp for ~10 minutes.

Why does formula E only have 200 for 10 minutes?

First, car weight. FE is not Pikes Peak where power is really important, FE race on more twisty tracks where handling is more important than brute power

Second, battery reliability and lifespan. FE is not Pikes Peak, where they can push the battery much harder and throw it away when finished. Pikes peak prototypes are that, a prototypes, if battery fails while racing nobody will think, hey electric vehicles are rubish, because everybody know they´re prototypes. But FE batteries must last 10 GPs, and if they fail, that would be really harmfull for the championship itself


As I said many times, FE first seasson must ensure reliability. They can take any risk on his very first seasson. Once the championship is stablished, they will push any part of the car harder, but that will be once the championship is stablished.

Anycase that´s a good example of FE potential, once they´re allowed to evolve any part of the car, in two or three seassons that´s the sort of perfomance we will see

Maybe that´s the reason I´m recording FE races. Now they´re way too slow, but I know how much this championship will evolve is few sesassons, and I´m sure in some years it will be really funny to see how slow FE cars were on its very first seasson compared to their 6th-7th generation brothers


Basically I think FE strong point right now is it´s writing a huge page on history books, more than true perfomance or racing interest, and I really enjoy watching something this new and this relevant on motorsport world

[mzso]

Pikes peak prototypes are that, a prototypes, if battery fails while racing nobody will think, hey electric vehicles are rubish, because everybody know they´re prototypes. But FE batteries must last 10 GPs, and if they fail, that would be really harmfull for the championship itself

Well what do you think formula cars are, series models?
Anyway. I didn't know about the 10GP thing. It's a dumb thing to do for a racing series.

[Andres125sx]

Pikes peak prototypes are that, a prototypes, if battery fails while racing nobody will think, hey electric vehicles are rubish, because everybody know they´re prototypes. But FE batteries must last 10 GPs, and if they fail, that would be really harmfull for the championship itself

Well what do you think formula cars are, series models?

FE more or less, this first seasson they´re spec series, so if they fail it´s not due to some team pushing the limits too far, but a serious fail of champioship organizers.

Same as if GP2 or World Series cars wouldn´t be reliable, championship image would be seriously damaged

[mrluke]

I dont understand how you can say it would be worse to have 20 odd cars pushing the limits of technology and punching out 700+ bhp rather than crawling around with 200 but having the batteries last for 10 races.

Watching on tv it makes no odds whether they throw away the batteries at the end of the race or the end of the decade, but having 3 x more power is very noticeable.

The whole appeal of this series is pushing the latest technology, without that its going to struggle.

[Andres125sx]

I dont understand how you can say it would be worse to have 20 odd cars pushing the limits of technology and punching out 700+ bhp rather than crawling around with 200 but having the batteries last for 10 races.

Watching on tv it makes no odds whether they throw away the batteries at the end of the race or the end of the decade, but having 3 x more power is very noticeable.

The whole appeal of this series is pushing the latest technology, without that its going to struggle.

What would you think about a spec series where most cars don´t finish the race?

It´s easy to ask for more power, no matter if it´s risky, from your armchair, but if I´d be the person in charge I also would be really carefull about what risks do I assume first seasson. If a Pikes Pike prototype fails, bad luck, try again next seasson. But if FE cars fail, bye bye, no more attempts allowed, you´ve ruined the championship


I also would prefer if they use one battery per GP, and a bigger one. I prefer a heavy car than a slow one, but FE battery is around 25% of total car weight, there must be some limit when increasing battery weight/capacity is not worth anymore, maybe they´re at that point yet.

Also, one of FE main goals is road relevance, what means batteries must last the whole seasson. Do you know how much stress a new battery may take pushing it hard for 10 GPs with their practice and qualifying seassons? Obviously no, because nobody knows that. It´s been done never before so nobody has experience, that´s the reason they MUST be conservative


This is not Pikes Pike where some privateers show their inventions and if they fail it doesn´t matter at all because they´re privatters. This is a FIA championship, if it fails people will think if not even FIA was able to develop a reliable electric championship, it must be that electric cars are useless for racing. That´s the difference between projects like Pikes Peak or Drayson car with FE, FE has a big responsability

[mzso]

He was talking about the 10 race thing. So why are you bringing up not finishing a race?

But if FE cars fail, bye bye, no more attempts allowed, you´ve ruined the championship

This is nonsense.

Also, one of FE main goals is road relevance, what means batteries must last the whole seasson. Do you know how much stress a new battery may take pushing it hard for 10 GPs with their practice and qualifying seassons? Obviously no, because nobody knows that. It´s been done never before so nobody has experience, that´s the reason they MUST be conservative

It means exactly the opposite. They should try for single race batteries, short term is easier to predict, naturally. Not that the "nobody knows" argument has any basis. All battery cells are tested and it's well determined how much they can handle at what discharge rates.

[Pierce89]

I dont understand how you can say it would be worse to have 20 odd cars pushing the limits of technology and punching out 700+ bhp rather than crawling around with 200 but having the batteries last for 10 races.

Watching on tv it makes no odds whether they throw away the batteries at the end of the race or the end of the decade, but having 3 x more power is very noticeable.

The whole appeal of this series is pushing the latest technology, without that its going to struggle.

What would you think about a spec series where most cars don´t finish the race?

It´s easy to ask for more power, no matter if it´s risky, from your armchair, but if I´d be the person in charge I also would be really carefull about what risks do I assume first seasson. If a Pikes Pike prototype fails, bad luck, try again next seasson. But if FE cars fail, bye bye, no more attempts allowed, you´ve ruined the championship


I also would prefer if they use one battery per GP, and a bigger one. I prefer a heavy car than a slow one, but FE battery is around 25% of total car weight, there must be some limit when increasing battery weight/capacity is not worth anymore, maybe they´re at that point yet.

Also, one of FE main goals is road relevance, what means batteries must last the whole seasson. Do you know how much stress a new battery may take pushing it hard for 10 GPs with their practice and qualifying seassons? Obviously no, because nobody knows that. It´s been done never before so nobody has experience, that´s the reason they MUST be conservative


This is not Pikes Pike where some privateers show their inventions and if they fail it doesn´t matter at all because they´re privatters. This is a FIA championship, if it fails people will think if not even FIA was able to develop a reliable electric championship, it must be that electric cars are useless for racing. That´s the difference between projects like Pikes Peak or Drayson car with FE, FE has a big responsability

I think you're overstating things. Besides, with the cars looking so slow on tv, people might say " I always knew EVs were heavy and slow, but damn those thinks look like I could walk faster". I think that would hurt more than a couple battery failures.

[FW17]

http://www.speedhunters.com/2014/09/mon ... -e-runner/

670bhp for ~10 minutes.

Why does formula E only have 200 for 10 minutes?

Can we expect a big boost for next year?

Or

Pikes Peak 670 hp for 20 kms

FE 200 hp for 45 kms


But what works at Pikes need not be the norm else where. Do you want to make the same comparison Sebastian Loeb drove with a current WRC?

[mrluke]

edit: for being a tard.

[FW17]

They do 45kms with 2 cars. I don't think they average 170mph...

I don't want to be rude but I think you should read what FE regs say first

[Andres125sx]

He was talking about the 10 race thing. So why are you bringing up not finishing a race?

Because capacity decreases with use, and the amount will depend on how hard was that use. Since there´s no real experience with electric racing cars using same battery for a whole seasson, they can´t be sure about how much capacity batteries will lack at final GPs

But if FE cars fail, bye bye, no more attempts allowed, you´ve ruined the championship

This is nonsense.

Don´t think so. EVs have too many haters to give them more reasons to bash them.

And this is a FIA championship, if there´re too many failures the image of EV´s and FIA itself will suffer, so the championship would probably be finished

Also, one of FE main goals is road relevance, what means batteries must last the whole seasson. Do you know how much stress a new battery may take pushing it hard for 10 GPs with their practice and qualifying seassons? Obviously no, because nobody knows that. It´s been done never before so nobody has experience, that´s the reason they MUST be conservative

It means exactly the opposite. They should try for single race batteries, short term is easier to predict, naturally. Not that the "nobody knows" argument has any basis. All battery cells are tested and it's well determined how much they can handle at what discharge rates.

But it can´t be determined how much the capacity will decrease with use, as this depend on many parameters like working temp (lithium batteries suffer with heat), charging rates, if they were properly storaged and some more

That´s the reason McLaren (if they are the manufacturer, I´m not sure now) did batteries with bigger capacity than theoretically needed, because not even they can be sure about their lifespan

[Andres125sx]

I think you're overstating things. Besides, with the cars looking so slow on tv, people might say " I always knew EVs were heavy and slow, but damn those thinks look like I could walk faster". I think that would hurt more than a couple battery failures.

But with current batteries they´re heavy and slow, you can´t hide that. OTOH reliability is one of their strong points, so if they fail then people will think EVs have no real advantages, as reliability is not what it was supposed to be

[FW17]

The freedom to hold computers in our hands, pop wireless headphones in our ears and pilot drones through our backyards is all brought to us by batteries -- especially rechargeable lithium ion batteries. The portable powerhouses are a critical component of our march toward tech mobility, yet most require hours of being plugged in to wall outlets to achieve a full charge.

A brand-new kind of battery to come out of the labs of scientists at Singapore's Nanyang Technological University (NTU) is set to change that. They've created a lithium ion battery that can get up to a 70 percent charge in just 2 minutes and can allegedly last up to 20 years.

The difference between their battery and the standard lithium ion type has to do with the substance used for the anode -- the negative terminal.

Current lithium ion batteries have graphite anodes. Instead of graphite, the team at NTU used a titanium dioxide gel they developed that dramatically speeds up the chemical reaction that takes place in the battery, meaning it can charge much faster.

To achieve this effect, they found a way of forming the titanium dioxide, which is normally spherical in shape, into tiny nanotubes -- small rods thousands of times smaller than a human hair. Unlike in typical lithium ion batteries, additives aren't needed to bind the electrodes to the anode, so reactions take place faster.

The researchers see the technology as especially valuable in improving the use of electric cars. "This next generation of lithium ion batteries will enable electric vehicles to charge 20 times faster than the current technology," said a Science Daily report about the research. "With it, electric vehicles will also be able to do away with frequent battery replacements. The new battery will be able to endure more than 10,000 charging cycles -- 20 times more than the current 500 cycles of today's batteries."

"With our nanotechnology, electric cars would be able to increase their range dramatically with just 5 minutes of charging, which is on par with the time needed to pump petrol for current cars," added the inventor of the titanium dioxide gel, NTU Singapore Associate Professor Chen Xiaodong.

The researchers, whose work was just published in the journal Advanced Materials, are now seeking a grant that will allow them to build a larger-scale prototype and figure out just how much power they can pack into their new ultra-fast-charging battery.

[Andres125sx]

That sort of improvement don´t convice me at all

To charge a battery let say in 6 minutes, you have to do a 10C charge... Do you know how much current does this mean? It will obviously depend on the battery, but if we say they´re 200Ah, that would be a current of 2000A....

They´re 375V, so you need a power station capable to provide 750kW per car