Front wing duct and stall theory

[Ferraripilot]

As a concept goes, I completely understand how this works and the merits to stalling the front wing. What I'm unsure regarding is how the stall speed might be controlled. I am willing to postulate a theory based on varying venturi diameters in the front wing pylons which allow up to a predetermined CFM at a 'X' (mph) intake speed velocity which in turn stalls the wing or further stalls the wing which leads into the next theory. The obvious we can be sure of which is Mercedes don't want is the wing stalling at 100mph when they are at a track which has 125mph turns.

The other theory is the wing is in a state of constant stall but at varying rates based on speed. This makes me wonder if the wing were heavily raked at the front that downforce would be in a constant state of diminishing returns based on speed. Or it could be a combination of both.

[allstaruk08]

i'v always thought it would be in a state of constant stall and the stall increased with speed because there is no way to control the air like they did with the F-duct where they blocked a hole, unless there is a way to block a hole with the foot to stall the wing but thats just a huge shot in the dark.

[ESPImperium]

Could there be a small valve that has a small weight attached to it that when the G force going into a corner suddenly closes the valve and the wing no longer stalls. Its not driver controled so its legal, right.

Im thinking allong the lines of the Lotus ride height thing, where its not driver controlled but completly legal.

[amouzouris]

Could there be a small valve that has a small weight attached to it that when the G force going into a corner suddenly closes the valve and the wing no longer stalls. Its not driver controled so its legal, right.

Im thinking allong the lines of the Lotus ride height thing, where its not driver controlled but completly legal.

ok..but this means that unless there is enough g-force to close the gap...its gonna stay open..but u need downforce in order to turn in..get the g-force and close the gap..which u wont get with a stalled wing..

[astracrazy]

unless there is a way to block a hole with the foot to stall the wing

illegal now i'm afraid

Any system, device or procedure which uses driver movement as a means of altering the aerodynamic characteristics of the car is prohibited from 2011

This new FW duct is 100% mechanical.

ESP: I think that would work
amouzouris: if you calibrated it to around 1g then it would work. I don't know when an f1 car would produce less g's and not be using mechanical grip

[amouzouris]

unless there is a way to block a hole with the foot to stall the wing

illegal now i'm afraid

Any system, device or procedure which uses driver movement as a means of altering the aerodynamic characteristics of the car is prohibited from 2011

This new FW duct is 100% mechanical.

ESP: I think that would work
amouzouris: if you calibrated it to around 1g then it would work. I don't know when an f1 car would produce less g's and not be using mechanical grip

yeah! u r actually right..!! that could really work!!

[Ferraripilot]

Could there be a small valve that has a small weight attached to it that when the G force going into a corner suddenly closes the valve and the wing no longer stalls. Its not driver controled so its legal, right.

Im thinking allong the lines of the Lotus ride height thing, where its not driver controlled but completly legal.

Right. I like this idea and it would not be quite so based on the diameter of the feed tubes regarding CFM allotment. The problem would be it would change the behavior of the front end at turn-in giving it much more bit in a very all-of-the-sudden manner unless it somehow were on collusion with the ride height control system in calming down the oversteer tendencies.

Or rather than a G-force controlled valve, the valve would be controlled by speed and open after a certain velocity were met inside the pylons. This issue would not be as beneficial as your idea as it would simply be met by speed rather than attitude of the car, but the car would not quite be so two-faced.

[astracrazy]

Surely we are talking about a split second of difference?

If the car wanted to move on the straight (to overtake) it would need to do so with the FW stalled no matter which system it uses (gforce/pressure)

so surely if they made it sensitive enough that it takes the smallest of forces to close the valve then it would be fine? If the split second understeer was a characteristic of the car then perhaps you would get used to it?

[allstaruk08]

not sure on the regs, but is there any way of having a connection to the steering (maybe not a actual connection to the steering column but through sensors that move a valve) so the more you turn the less stall you get?

[astracrazy]

it can't be controlled by the steering because thats driver controlled

It's got to be an indirect consequence of an action (that's my take) so it doesn't happen because the driver turned the wheel it happens because of the g-forces created from the car turning (if we were to talk about this weight idea). I might be wrong though

[Ferraripilot]

Surely we are talking about a split second of difference?

If the car wanted to move on the straight (to overtake) it would need to do so with the FW stalled no matter which system it uses (gforce/pressure)

so surely if they made it sensitive enough that it takes the smallest of forces to close the valve then it would be fine? If the split second understeer was a characteristic of the car then perhaps you would get used to it?

I believe the weight and g-force idea would have too much an effect on balance of the car at corner entry. At turn-in, a driver would almost have to take a leap of faith knowing the additional downforce would indeed be there and I would also be curious regarding any air attachment issues which W02 suffered from with the rear wing opening and closing at the beginning of the season, for Schu's car anyway. Rather than side g-loads, the stall could be deactivated upon braking g-loads though.



Although if this were to work, another option could forsee is a slide valve type of device at the bottom of the wing pylons which are themselves weighted and sprung on either side so when the car turned right or left the hole would gradually close rather than simply slamming closed with a g-force based switched device. This does sound a bit analogue but I believe a gradual assertion of the downforce would ease the front end handling characteristic. That or it could make it worse. This is one of those times that I would really like to know what the drivers have to say about it.

[allstaruk08]

super quick drawing but the idea is air goes in the front (3 arrows) and when you turn one of the slides cover the hole, so you turn left the left slide pulls across and a spring slides it back, or maybe angle the bottom of the slide so its like sliding up and when the car straightens up it slides back down a tiny slope

[ESPImperium]

Ive just tried to draw something, and it didnt come out correctly. However that idea would work. You would want the wing to stall in a straight line, but when it comes to turning in you would want it to re-attach quickly.

My idea relies on a centrafugal weight opening and closing a valve, the idea above relies on doors and springs. Both would work.

Could you stall one side of the wing and not the other in high speed corners???

Or could you have a valve that closed the doors or valve when brake force is felt simmilar to what the Lotus Suspension Attitide Adjuster does, thus re attaching flow over the wing???

[allstaruk08]

would it be allowed to have a button on the steering wheel that closes the slide? or would that be classed as moveable aero? if you could you just close the slide on the straight before the corner, instead of turning in and hoping the slide moves across

[astracrazy]

Could you stall one side of the wing and not the other in high speed corners???

interesting idea, would this have the same effect as that braking system mclaren had years ago for corners?

would it be allowed to have a button on the steering wheel that closes the slide? or would that be classed as moveable aero? if you could you just close the slide on the straight before the corner, instead of turning in and hoping the slide moves across

movable aero i think