Magnus effect

[shelly]

In hie latest blog post:

http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2012/03/14/the-secret-of-f1-aerodynamics-in-2012/

Joe Saward says the secret of f1 aerodynamics in 2012 is the use of Coanda effect and Magnus effect.

I think this is a reasonable claim (probably Saward, who seldom writes about aero, has his good soure for it.)

Coanda effect is an already discussed topic here on f1t, whereas magnus effect has much many entries if you search for it, even if it is much less subtle than coanda effect, and everyone who has thrown a spinning ball in whatever ball game knows about it.

This year especially Coanda has become widespread word even in the not-so-technical forum and magazines like Autosprint in Italy for example.

As magnus effect is about rotating objects, its applications in f1 have to do with wheels and driveshafts.

In my opinion, in 2012 the only car I see is deling with magnus effect in some way dieeferent form the others is the redbull, with its partial fairing on the driveshaft.
Saward makes explicit reference to wheels, and maybe with that is meant that controlling tyre squirt will be key again - but that's not a novelty for 2012.

Maybe I have not looke hadr enough: what do you think?

[hardingfv32]

On the mechanical side how do you think they mount the drive-shaft shroud? Does it stay aligned at all times?

Do you have a photo from the rear?

Are you proposing preventing or using the Magnus effect?

Brian

[n smikle]

using bodywork to shroud the driveshaft is not allowed. But RedBull have gotten away since the suspension is not considered bodywork.

[radosav]

i dont see the gain from magnus effect on driveshaft. the element is too small. benefit of magnus effect on tyres is much bigger.

[hardingfv32]

using bodywork to shroud the driveshaft is not allowed. But RedBull have gotten away since the suspension is not considered bodywork.

Expand... I still do not see how it is done. Are you saying it is attached to the control arm in front of it? That would be in the same plain, but why not just make a larger more sleek profile? Too much surface drag?

Brian

[hardingfv32]

benefit of magnus effect on tyres is much bigger.

Please expand. I have a couple of wheel aero studies and I do not recall any discussion of Magnus effect. They are large, I might have missed something

PM with Email and I will provide the PDF's.

Brian

[Pup]

IMO, what Joe is talking about is the airflow around the tire helping to drive the exhaust under the floor.

[radosav]

benefit of magnus effect on tyres is much bigger.

Please expand. I have a couple of wheel aero studies and I do not recall any discussion of Magnus effect. They are large, I might have missed something

PM with Email and I will provide the PDF's.

Brian

sorry, this is just my opinion. i saw this video and made my conclusion.

[n smikle]

It is too far fetched to believe that down force from that effect is significant on a 2" diameter drive shaft that is shiny smooth.

[hardingfv32]

It is too far fetched to believe that down force from that effect is significant on a 2" diameter drive shaft that is shiny smooth.

I would say the shaft is more on the order of 1". The tri-pod or universal on my F1 upright has an OD of 2.0"!

Please expand on how you see the downforce being generated. I understand the effect, but do see how you aim it downward/upward?

Brian

[n smikle]

They must think whatever miniscule pressure increase on the drive-shaft is not worth the turbulence. Actually,I think Redbull are trying to avoid such disturbance from the drive-shaft. I think this is one of the delicate refinements that we see on the RB8.

[hardingfv32]

Has anyone got a picture of the backside? Fully or partially in closed?

Brian

[Twaddle]

i dont see the gain from magnus effect on driveshaft. the element is too small. benefit of magnus effect on tyres is much bigger.

I thought that the tyres produced both some lift and a significant amount of drag, hence the front wings being designed to get as much air as possible to go either around or over them. I don't see how you're going to get a benefit once you consider the effect of the tyre being in contact with the track.

[hardingfv32]

I have a number of studies on flow around a wheel with and without a simple front wing in PDFs.

PM me with your Email and I will provide them.

Brian

[radosav]

i dont see the gain from magnus effect on driveshaft. the element is too small. benefit of magnus effect on tyres is much bigger.

I thought that the tyres produced both some lift and a significant amount of drag, hence the front wings being designed to get as much air as possible to go either around or over them. I don't see how you're going to get a benefit once you consider the effect of the tyre being in contact with the track.

i was refering to joe saward article and that if i had to choose between tyres and drive shaft, i would say that tyres give more force due to magnus effect thad drive shaft.