Exhaust-heated pipes tale

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shelly
shelly
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Joined: 05 May 2009, 12:18

Exhaust-heated pipes tale

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Suppose that there is a team, which last year experimented with two pipes running from the back to the front of the car.
Suppose they found that those pipes, running in proximity of engine and exhaust pipes, heated the small mass of air flowing of a certain amount.
Suppose that the same team, after the rules have banned their clever piping system, still want to use those two pipes from last year, and combine them with their last year kers cooling inlets (their kers is more evolved this year, does not need them anymore...):
Image

They take a look at Rayleigh flow on wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rayleigh_flow
and find that they can add a good amount of energy to the flow entering those inlets if they manage to make it flow in a small channel adjacent to the hot exhaust pipes.
To put this high energy to good use, they just need an outlet for the pipe at the back of the car, better if it is close to the diffuser edge:
Image
To check that every thing is working as expected, they had better put a couple of thermosensitive stickers on the gearbox and crash structure (see picture).

Just a winter test tale
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Rikhart
Rikhart
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Joined: 10 Feb 2009, 20:21

Re: Exhaust-heated pipes tale

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So are you saying they dont need the inlets to cool kers any more (in which case they wouldnt need to cool them like they are doing in one of the pics, with the blower), and are using them to energize flow coming out the back, or that the effect is in addition to cooling kers? Anyway, it´s a nice brainstorm, you could be on to something here!

Just to add to the topic, last years piping you are talking about:

Image

Not exactly touching the exhausts, but close enough to get very hot indeed.

Rikhart
Rikhart
18
Joined: 10 Feb 2009, 20:21

Re: Exhaust-heated pipes tale

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Also I wonder if red bull´s tunnel uses such an effect as well? Notice the exhaust goes directly over the tunnel, no doubt heating any air that enters it.

shelly
shelly
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Joined: 05 May 2009, 12:18

Re: Exhaust-heated pipes tale

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Yes that is something I was wondering too -usually floor and bodywork are cohimbented to reflect heat from engine and exhaust.
Iirc in 2011 rbr run a sort of carbon casing wrapping the exhaust tightly, and they have remove it for 2012. If this is true, what could be the idea behind such a change?

I have noticed also that another poster (atanizante) in th w04 thread talked about rumors for changes in w04 piping - I think it will be interesting to see how this evolve
twitter: @armchair_aero

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Ferraripilot
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Joined: 28 Jan 2011, 16:36
Location: Atlanta

Re: Exhaust-heated pipes tale

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Brilliant post Shelly. Thank you. =D>

At such low mach figures would such an arrangement be of any benefit? And if it is, would the CFM from the two pipes be really of all that much benefit? I can certainly see the additional volume of air supplied to the rear as beneficial if nothing else. One last thought, if they are doing this I believe the optimal exit area would be at or near the dip in the floor blowing the starter motor hole.

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
591
Joined: 31 Jan 2010, 20:37

Re: Exhaust-heated pipes tale

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Would this effect be looking to provide some thrust, reduce drag or just drive the centre of the diffuser? Presumably driving the diffuser is the most useful of those.
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Raptor22
Raptor22
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Joined: 07 Apr 2009, 22:48

Re: Exhaust-heated pipes tale

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Shelly I like what you are hypothsising. I proposed something similar in the RedBull RB9 hread where i think the primary tunnel is used to get heated air the diffuser lip and secondary tunnel feeds the starter motor hole. Whether the primary tunnel air is heated through surface heat transfer or whether hot side pod air is dumped into it is unclear. They would need a material that transfer heat quickly, likely aluminium coated with a sort of heat sink compound to take heat from the exhaust through the air and composite skin into the tunnel

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PlatinumZealot
551
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Exhaust-heated pipes tale

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shelly wrote:Suppose that there is a team, which last year experimented with two pipes running from the back to the front of the car.
Suppose they found that those pipes, running in proximity of engine and exhaust pipes, heated the small mass of air flowing of a certain amount.
Suppose that the same team, after the rules have banned their clever piping system, still want to use those two pipes from last year, and combine them with their last year kers cooling inlets (their kers is more evolved this year, does not need them anymore...):

They take a look at Rayleigh flow on wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rayleigh_flow
and find that they can add a good amount of energy to the flow entering those inlets if they manage to make it flow in a small channel adjacent to the hot exhaust pipes.
To put this high energy to good use, they just need an outlet for the pipe at the back of the car, better if it is close to the diffuser edge:
http://www.motorsport-magazin.com/image ... 470967.jpg
To check that every thing is working as expected, they had better put a couple of thermosensitive stickers on the gearbox and crash structure (see picture).

Just a winter test tale
Nice Idea.

It is interesting that you mention the ray-leigh effect to apply to this.. any reason why you go as far?
and how do you think the effect would benefit the flow? Its just air in a pipe and it certainly would get considerably hot, but its not like its some microscale mixing or anything...

Anyway, taking energy from the exhaust pipes means you also take energy away from the coanda exhaust. Taking energy from the exhaust is not good unless you somehow tune your heated tube as a drag reduction device to be used on the straights where the high energy from the exhaust is not needed. This maybe right after exiting a corner, where your air flow through the tube doesn't become appreciable until a tuned speed.
At higher speeds there is higher exhaust temperatures and higher air flow through the tube so you have greater heat transfer.

I am going to ignore fuel overrun for the examples below. I think fuel overrun is greatly limited these days in F1.

High engine power at slow car speed = less heat transfer from exhaust pipe, more heat transfere per molecule of air (slower pass time), and slower nozzle speed exiting the tube.

High engine power at high car speed = maximum heat loss from exhaust pipes, less heat transfer to each molecule of air (faster pass time), and higher nozzle speed exiting the tube.

There are "cross over points" of engine power, car speed and state of tune of the air pipe to give different results of: activation point (think F-duct), exiting temperature of the air pipe and exiting air speed from the air pipe.

To what effect this may be used to reduce drag is an another interesting argument in itself.
On the other hand it could be used to add downforce somewhere on the car but this is difficult to concieve since slotted wings are banned and the air speed exiting the tube would not fast enough to seal diffusers and whatnot.
Last edited by Steven on 11 Feb 2013, 13:38, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Remove quoted images
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shelly
shelly
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Joined: 05 May 2009, 12:18

Re: Exhaust-heated pipes tale

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@rikhart and raptor22: I also think rbr could be doing something similar with their duct. to maximise the effect, you would need not to shroud the heat: so if their floor would be missing the usula cohimbentation on the inside that could be an indication they are trying to transfer some heat.
As far as the merc would be concerned, I think that maybe you do not need a complete pipe running from the sidepod to the back: the central part of the pipe could be missing, and the duct could be formed by an inlet pointing precisely at the space between the exhausts and the engine block, by a central parts in which the sidewals of the pipe are the exhaust pipes and engine block themselves, and by a properly shaped outlet for ducting the flow out.
twitter: @armchair_aero

shelly
shelly
136
Joined: 05 May 2009, 12:18

Re: Exhaust-heated pipes tale

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@smikle: I put a link to rayleigh flow because it is related to heat addition to constant mass flow rate flows - the model (would it be applicable in this case?) shows that adding heat to a subsonic flow increases its speed - no mixing, just air getting hotter and gaining speed as a consequence.

Agree with you that energy added to this hypotetcial flow would be subtracted to coanda, but maybe having these two effects working together and sharing some of the energy would be better in terms of downforce than concentrating all on the exhausts - the key is that this flow, being along the rules just a "cooling flow", can be routed almost everywhere, without the restrictions on position that have led to the coanda trick.

I also agree on you that different internal flow behaviour for different speeds is an interesting topic, and I would alike to open (or bump up a similar old thread) once I have put some order to my ideas on that.
twitter: @armchair_aero

Raptor22
Raptor22
26
Joined: 07 Apr 2009, 22:48

Re: Exhaust-heated pipes tale

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Depends where the energy for heating the tunnel flow is coming from If the exhaust play a role then sure there will be a loss of coanda but Coanda is there to improve diffuser efficiency and anything that provides a a step in a gaining more efficiency provides an exponential leap in downforce. I'm not sure what the relationship is as I have not tunnel or thermodynamic data to confirm but I would guesstimate it is a x=Y^n type relationship ie.e for every X percent you improve diffuser efficiency you get a Y^n increase in downforce.
Losing a little in one area may be offset by the gain elsewhere.

cwb
cwb
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Joined: 11 Feb 2013, 13:21

Re: Exhaust-heated pipes tale

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Diffuser efficiency is improved by sealing it, i.e. preventing air from 'leaking' into the diffuser volume, not but putting more air in. The term 'blown' diffuser is a bit of a misnomer since what the coanda exhausts do is provide an "air skirt" to the lateral underside edges of the diffuser.

I cant believe the miniscule amount of air travelling through these ducts and any energy added to to it as it passes over the engine/exhaust will provide anything significant in the way of additional aero performance. My best guess is that the ducting is providing some efficient engine compartment cooling to enable them to package everything more tightly.