## Adjustable rear wing to allow overtaking in 2011.

Here are our CFD links and discussions about aerodynamics, suspension, driver safety and tyres. Please stick to F1 on this forum.
0
What is the 1 second based on though? Is it:

a) If the car ahead were to stop, the car behind would take 1 second to catch up

or

b) if the car behind were to stop, he would be where the car ahead was, exactly 1 second ago?

Does it count if a car is 1 second behind a backmarker?

raymondu999
105

Joined: 4 Feb 2010

0
Take any point on the track... when the first car reaches this point start the stop watch. If the car behind takes less than 1 second to get to the same point he is within 1 second of the car infront...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
VIRTUAL STOPWATCH -Vehicle acceleration and lap time calculator Demo online. Now works on mobile devices!

Twitter feed
machin
36

Joined: 25 Nov 2008

0
machin wrote:Take any point on the track... when the first car reaches this point start the stop watch. If the car behind takes less than 1 second to get to the same point he is within 1 second of the car infront...

I'll take that as a) If the car ahead were to stop, the car behind would take 1 second to catch up then

raymondu999
105

Joined: 4 Feb 2010

0
I read that this is an old FIA-idea, hatched by MrM in one of his wannabe-engineer moments together with Nick Wirth,
why he has used all his weight thru his current position in the senate to finally push it into reality.

That figures, doesn't it?
"Bernoulli is a nine-letter name"
xpensive
12

Joined: 22 Nov 2008

0
We all do know that there will be adjustable wings for next year, but I haven't found any numbers yet, in the sense the angle that the flap would be allowed to change?

For the teams,esp smaller ones wouldn't it mean more expenditure in Wind tunnel testing?
optimising cars for an ideal set-up with the tire wear, with the fuel being consumed over the race distance?

2) There would be some separation distance when the following car would become totally engulfed in the wake and might render this small adjustment useless??

The added complexity of KERS comes into picture where the driver would have to engage the KERS button and go into the low drag mode and overtake along with other functions to control the car. Would it be safe to overly complicate things in this regard?

Thanks
n_anirudh
3

Joined: 25 Jul 2008

0
surely this does not justify the reason for banning the f-duct? more or less same thing no?

won't be long till there is a crash when the mechanism fails (like it did for vettel in spain for his front wing)
astracrazy
10

Joined: 4 Mar 2009

0
You could use a bit of imagination yourself WB, the idea of the adjustable rear wing for the following car was hatched by Wirth when working on that split-wing for MrM some years back, but yes, the proximity-thing could be rather new.
"Bernoulli is a nine-letter name"
xpensive
12

Joined: 22 Nov 2008

0
xpensive wrote:You could use a bit of imagination yourself WB, the idea of the adjustable rear wing for the following car was hatched by Wirth when working on that split-wing for MrM some years back, but yes, the proximity-thing could be rather new.

So we are finally talking sense now. The idea of a movable wing is fairly old and was already on the table in 1996 as we can read at GP.com. It was old when the CDG wing was proposed in 2005 as you seem to remember.

Peter Wright at GP.com in 1997 wrote:By the end of the last year's racing season, no solution to reducing aerodynamic loads had been found. The FIA backed a proposal from some teams for an active front wing - the incidence would be actively controlled to permit a change of balance in the wake of a leading car. Some teams rose to the challenge, while others recoiled from it, and without unanimity it did not get accepted.

Btw, the F1 designer who was associated with the CDG project in the press was Newey. He was on gardening leave and supposedly looked at the AMD sponsored FiA research. I have still not seen a hint that Nick Wirth was involved but it may be possible that he was in 1996 or even earlier.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)
WhiteBlue
46

Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Location: WhiteBlue Country

0
In the meantime more informationcame from Autosport on the technical plan

Autosport wrote:With the rules dictating that the leading car will not be able to respond if his pursuer has got within one second of him in the previous sector, current drivers worry that the move could detract from the purity of F1.

So the SECU is not going to take GPS signals but previous sector times to determine if a driver is within the proximity interval. This also indicates how a counter attack will be ruled. You have to be at least one sector behind and still be in the proximity distance to be able to counter attack with the flat wing. This will usually mean you have to stay within striking distance from your opponent and then you get the opportunity in the next lap on the straight.

We can expect a lot of passing on the straights but not much in the corners.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)
WhiteBlue
46

Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Location: WhiteBlue Country

0
"Wirth may have been involved"? Try this one for size and try to shut up for a minute or two;

http://www.grandprix.com/ft/ft20831.html

Excerpt;

In 2005 FIA President Max Mosley commissioned his former partner Nick Wirth, a designer who had worked with the Simtek and Renault F1 teams, to come up with an idea of how to lower aerodynamic turbulence behind the cars and by doing so create more overtaking. Wirth worked with computational fluid dynamics (CFD) programmes to come up with what he called the Centreline Downwash Generating (CDG) wing. The FIA announced that it would introduce the CDG wing in 2008.

Plenty more on www.grandprix.com on the matter. Search "CDG" and enjoy.
"Bernoulli is a nine-letter name"
xpensive
12

Joined: 22 Nov 2008

0
Just a thought....will it make that much difference to overtaking?

OK the following car will get a higher top speed - which should allow it to draw closer to or even pass the car in front.

Next bit - they arrive at the ensuing corner with one car having a higher top speed.......guess what.......all other thing being equal (fuel load, tyres etc.) the faster car has to brake earlier to make the corner.

I doubt it will be as clear cut as it seems.

Otherwise, I think the plan stinks of design by committee - it's messy.
RH1300S
1

Joined: 6 Jun 2005

0
Sorry, I erased approximately two dozen posts because they were out of thread.

I confess I came here just to edit one post. Amazing, isn't it?

Please, I beg some people to post less, so it doesn't seem they are hijacking this thread. That only happens in low quality forums...
Ciro
Ciro Pabón
52

Joined: 10 May 2005

0
Pity, you should have erased at least a dozen more beloved moderator, preferably those in blue...
"Bernoulli is a nine-letter name"
xpensive
12

Joined: 22 Nov 2008

0
THIS IS A STICKUP! EVERYBODY DOWN

We are now on our way to Cuba.
P.S. You may now consider the thread hijacked.

To be on topic: I think active aero was a long time coming (ok this is a baby step to it) as there is virtually no downside to it. Lot's of people will bitch it's not road relevent, or it's too expensive, or it's for nerds.

Well to those people I say, go watch a low cost open wheel series designed for people who aren't interested in the car and only watch for the crashes. Indycar comes to mind. You want something that looks road relevent, watch touring cars.

Active aero is cool, bring back active ride too.
xxChrisxx
10

Joined: 18 Sep 2009

0
xpensive wrote:"Wirth may have been involved"? Try this one for size and try to shut up for a minute or two;

http://www.grandprix.com/ft/ft20831.html

Excerpt;

In 2005 FIA President Max Mosley commissioned his former partner Nick Wirth, a designer who had worked with the Simtek and Renault F1 teams, to come up with an idea of how to lower aerodynamic turbulence behind the cars and by doing so create more overtaking. Wirth worked with computational fluid dynamics (CFD) programmes to come up with what he called the Centreline Downwash Generating (CDG) wing. The FIA announced that it would introduce the CDG wing in 2008.

Plenty more on http://www.grandprix.com on the matter. Search "CDG" and enjoy.

Ahhh, I love that article : I have referenced it in many threads on these boards over the years ...
"Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine ..."
gridwalker
1

Joined: 27 Mar 2009
Location: Sheffield, UK

PreviousNext

Return to Aerodynamics, chassis and tyres

### Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], bhallg2k and 7 guests