Where is the Anti Roll Bar located on a F1 car?

[doopie2you]

The title is clear enough I think, i want to know where the Anti-Roll bar is located at a F1 car. And do they have one at the front wheels?

Do they have some sort of special Anti-Roll bar system? Or is it just, just like on a WRC car a simple metal bar which can be changed by softness? I don't really understand the function of the Anti-Roll bar on cars and racing cars. I have already read the article about suspension and stuff, but i can't find a good clear explanation about ONLY the Anti-Roll Bar.

Hope you guys can help me out.

[Jersey Tom]

ARB's do exactly what the name would imply. It helps reduce body roll by stiffening the suspension.

Springs can do the same, but one advantage of the ARB is that it does not engage in axle (two wheel) heave, or in chassis pitch.

[speedsense]

ARB's do exactly what the name would imply. It helps reduce body roll by stiffening the suspension.

Sorry but not quite, ARB's connect the front wheels or the rears, and work by the loaded wheel going into compression and "attempting to pull" the unladen wheel into compression as well. This causes the ARB to twist. The amount of twist, is the allowable amount of roll. It does not "stiffen" the suspension per say. Only stiffens the roll resistance and the act of rolling and acts on the weight transfer not only on the front wheels but also the diagonal weight transfer
JT, ARB's do not increase spring rate but they do allow a lesser spring rate to be run with stiffer ARB's.

Springs can do the same, but one advantage of the ARB is that it does not engage in axle (two wheel) heave, or in chassis pitch.

Sorry, not quite right again. Springs can control the rate of roll, but do not have a finite roll resistance as the ARB does. And they only have a weight transfer effect on one corner of the car. A front ARB can effect three corners of the car at one time, with a minor effect on the fourth... Springs and ARB's are not the same thing nor share the same effects.....

For the OP,...

As far as F1 goes, the jury is out as to whether they run arb's (it is said they don't) however they are running torsion bars as springs, the question become whether they are connected across the front or the rear. An ARB, is a "form" of a torsion bar, but a torsion bar used for springs isn't an ARB, IF the center of the torsion bar isn't connected between the front wheels or rear wheels , it's just a different form of springing. Connecting it would have a non-independent effect and it would "act" like a sway bar, and not like independent springs....

[speedsense]

ARB's do exactly what the name would imply. It helps reduce body roll by stiffening the suspension.

Sorry but not quite, ARB's connect the front wheels or the rears, and work by the loaded wheel going into compression and "attempting to pull" the unladen wheel into compression as well. This causes the ARB to twist. The amount of twist, is the allowable amount of roll. It does not "stiffen" the suspension per say. Only stiffens the roll resistance and the act of rolling and acts on the weight transfer not only on the front wheels but also the diagonal weight transfer
JT, ARB's do not increase spring rate but they do allow a lesser spring rate to be run with stiffer ARB's.

Springs can do the same, but one advantage of the ARB is that it does not engage in axle (two wheel) heave, or in chassis pitch.

Sorry, not quite right again. Springs can control the rate of roll, but do not have a finite roll resistance as the ARB does. And they only have a weight transfer effect on one corner of the car. A front ARB can effect three corners of the car at one time, with a minor effect on the fourth... Springs and ARB's are not the same thing nor share the same effects.....

As far as F1 goes, the jury is out as to whether they run arb's (it is said they don't) however they are running torsion bars as springs, the question become whether they are connected across the front or the rear. An ARB, is a "form" of a torsion bar, but a torsion bar used for springs isn't an ARB, IF the center of the torsion bar isn't connected between the front wheels or rear wheels.

[Jersey Tom]

Ohh FFS, you know exactly what I mean. Not going to nit pick over it.

The suspension... that which controls the relative movement of the sprung and unsprung masses (be it in heave, pitch, or roll). Less movement -> ergo, suspension is stiffer. Roll rate goes up -> suspension is stiffer.

[Just_a_fan]

As far as F1 goes, the jury is out as to whether they run arb's (it is said they don't)

They do indeed run ARBs - at least on the rear end. It's difficult to see what's going on at the front of the cars because the relevant bits of the suspension are within the tub. Seen plenty of pictures of the exposed rear suspension to see the ARB.

[mep]

A front ARB can effect three corners of the car at one time, with a minor effect on the fourth...

And these are.....?
A bit more details please.

They do indeed run ARBs - at least on the rear end. It's difficult to see what's going on at the front of the cars because the relevant bits of the suspension are within the tub. Seen plenty of pictures of the exposed rear suspension to see the ARB.

I think it makes little sense to run one at rear when you don't run one at front.
As far as I know the rear ones are softer than the front ones so can we conclude that they have front ARB's when we see rear ARB?

[DaveW]

All F1 vehicles I have seen (apart from one, briefly) can run rear arbs. They can also run six springs, & (probably) a front arb too. They don't necessarily always run a full complement (six springs & 2 arbs), however. Some of the springs may be non-linear.

[doopie2you]

Does somebody got a video, or picture of the ARB on a car, when it works. So i can see how it works. I can't really understand how it works ( Dumb i know!)

6 Springs Where do they put all those springs

[mep]

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

The heave spring in the middle is easy to see.
The other 2 springs stick out of the bellcranks. These are the torsion bars speedsense mentioned. The dampers for both sides are ordinary ones (no rotary damper or an inerter)The anti roll bar is another torsion bars located below the solid bar that connects right and left side. The anti roll bar itself is therefore not visible on this picture. The anti rollbar can move freely with the middle spring but when just one side goes up or down it will twist.
Also notice how the wishbones are attached to the gearbox. They don't have any ball joints. It is just the flat end itself that flexes. Right of the bellcrank you can see some small black sticks. These are sensors who measure the suspension travel.

[speedsense]

As far as F1 goes, the jury is out as to whether they run arb's (it is said they don't)

They do indeed run ARBs - at least on the rear end. It's difficult to see what's going on at the front of the cars because the relevant bits of the suspension are within the tub. Seen plenty of pictures of the exposed rear suspension to see the ARB.

It's difficult to determine this, as the third spring T bar, may or may not be an ARB. When Rubens third spring came off the car, there were many close ups taken of the rear "t-bar". A closer look at it, one can see it's not an ARB as the center post is bolted into the top piece. If it were an ARB, it would not be allowed to rotate around the center and there won't be a bolt there.
Now if, and that's a big if (as the shaft of the piece is so narrow) the top of the T were a square hole with the shaft having a female square inserted into the hole, and then bolted down on top, then and only then would this piece function as an ARB. Otherwise, there's another piece somewhere that is an ARB. I can't find it. IMHO

[speedsense]

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

The heave spring in the middle is easy to see.
The other 2 springs stick out of the bellcranks. These are the torsion bars speedsense mentioned. The dampers for both sides are ordinary ones (no rotary damper or an inerter)The anti roll bar is another torsion bars located below the solid bar that connects right and left side. The anti roll bar itself is therefore not visible on this picture. The anti rollbar can move freely with the middle spring but when just one side goes up or down it will twist.
Also notice how the wishbones are attached to the gearbox. They don't have any ball joints. It is just the flat end itself that flexes.
Right of the bellcrank you can see some small black sticks. These are sensors who measure the suspension travel.

Thanks for picture. Notice the nut on top of the T that activates the third spring. You can see that it's hollow inside and round. This shaft from another view, is of a very small diameter, too small (too weak) in my opinion to operate as an ARB.
All of the above indicate that the mechanicism rotates around this center piece, offering 0 roll resistance...
Of interest, though is the center of the bell cranks. These are the torsion springs, and if they are connected, from side to side, inside the trans case, they would function not only as springs, but an ARB as well. However they would need some sort of independence from each other yet become connected in roll.

[Just_a_fan]

The T-bar to which the forward end of the third spring is connected is indeed the anti roll bar. The bell cranks operate the third spring by way of the top of the anti roll bar. In compression the third spring is compressed by rearwards movement of the top of the T-bar. However, and the reason for the design, the anti roll bar can operate the third spring and still function as an anti roll bar at the same time.

[Just_a_fan]

Does somebody got a video, or picture of the ARB on a car, when it works. So i can see how it works. I can't really understand how it works ( Dumb i know!)

6 Springs Where do they put all those springs

6 Springs - a torsion bar spring for each wheel plus a 'third spring' at each end.

The third spring is there purely to carry the additional loads from the aero downforce; the idea is that the wheel springs (the torsion bars) can better react to individual bumps with this set up.

[speedsense]

The T-bar to which the forward end of the third spring is connected is indeed the anti roll bar. The bell cranks operate the third spring by way of the top of the anti roll bar. In compression the third spring is compressed by rearwards movement of the top of the T-bar. However, and the reason for the design, the anti roll bar can operate the third spring and still function as an anti roll bar at the same time.

It can not rotate at it's center point and still be a anti roll bar. Many third spring suspensions work exactly this way BUT there's no rotation point in the center of the T and they function as an ARB because the top of the T and the shaft are of one piece.
There are designs of TBar ARBs that the shaft can be remove and replaced with a thicker or thinner shaft. These are "slotted" with a square hole so the whole thing will resist and twist the shaft.
This picture does not show that, but rather shows one that has a center rotation, as it's round not slotted.....
Simply bolting the piece together will not work as an ARB, Sorry... this is not an ARB, the physics of it say so...
This piece works the the third spring only when both rocker move in the same direction. When the rockers move in opposite directions, the piece rotates and eliminates the third spring, AND has no roll resistance. Now weld the shaft to the top of the T, then you have an ARB and the only way this can be anti roll.
IMHO