Flexible wings 2011

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Ferraripilot
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Re: McLaren MP4-26 Mercedes

Postby Ferraripilot » Thu Jun 30, 2011 6:38 pm

Ok I understand the balance portion between downforce and drag and how it relates to terminal velocity etc now, I suppose it simply caught me off-guard as someone pointed out I was referring to Suzuka/Silverstone type situations. This reminds me of D Patrick's recent Indy 500 run where she admitted she required more downforce in the turns as she could not control the car enough which in-turn killed her top speed hence why the superior driver behind her caught up so quickly to her lead.


I have a feeling Chuck is going to call on 3.15 shortly. Flexing makes the change to pivoting? No, don't think so.

forty-two
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Re: McLaren MP4-26 Mercedes

Postby forty-two » Sat Jul 02, 2011 12:23 am

Surely the word "rigidly" has just as much scope for movement as "no degree of movement"?

No wing can be devoid of ANY flexion, just the same as there is in reality no such thing as rigid. Hell, even steel reinforced concrete road bridges flex, sit in traffic on one while traffic in the other direction is belting past and you'll soon see what I mean.

Even if that wing were attached with 2 inch diameter steel studs it would still have a degree of freedom. To demonstrate this, I have a PIN pad outside my back door which consists of a solid lump of aluminium approximately 1 inch thick which can accurately detect where it's being flexed from the pressure of a finger by means of strain gauges mounted to the back of it (through 3/4 inch of solid aluminium). Nothing in the world is entirely without some degree of movement.

I think that perhaps McLaren have played a blinder here, only trouble is that MrE seems to be in love with Vettel ATM, and I am sure his word will be obeyed. Add to that the general disliking of McLaren by the FIA and I think this could end in tears, albeit tears which anyone with half a brain can work out the cause and injustice of.
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Richard
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Re: Flexible wings 2011

Postby Richard » Sun Jul 03, 2011 7:38 pm

42 - A connection should be near rigid, ie deflections would be near immeasurable.

Lets say total 750kg loading on 4x10dia steel bolts (ie two per pylon) with elongation over 10mm (ie thickness of connecting plys) gives 0.15mm.

I'd say that could be considered rigid for this context. (although worryingly flexible for an electon microscope mounting)

Henning
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Re: Flexible wings 2011

Postby Henning » Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:45 pm

Has anyone else wondered how much the nose camera location has had a hand in this debate?

I can't help but think that if McLaren had mounted their cameras on the very tip of the nose like the RB6, then nobody would be any the wiser about their wing flexing at speed.

That in turn makes me wonder whether Red Bull deliberately mounted their cameras higher to stop images of the wings flexing being seen by everyone.

forty-two
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Re: Flexible wings 2011

Postby forty-two » Thu Jul 07, 2011 3:51 pm

Precisely why I think that McLaren may have done this quite deliberately in full view of their cameras to make a point.

If Red Bull can be deemed legal because they "pass all the tests" despite obvious visual evidence to the contrary, so can they...
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ecapox
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Re: Flexible wings 2011

Postby ecapox » Thu Jul 07, 2011 6:47 pm

forty-two wrote:Precisely why I think that McLaren may have done this quite deliberately in full view of their cameras to make a point.

If Red Bull can be deemed legal because they "pass all the tests" despite obvious visual evidence to the contrary, so can they...


You know, i really thought this as well, but with this place always asking for "sources" i kept my opinion to myself.

MIKEY_!
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Re: Flexible wings 2011

Postby MIKEY_! » Wed Jul 20, 2011 11:46 am

How difficult would it be to have the supports between the wing and nose flex at speed. They would have to twist to do this but an angled support like RBR's would be ideal. With this system the nose stays high maintaining the same airflow to the rear of the car while the wing is lowered just like RBR.
I've found a way of ducting exhaust right to the diffuser edge like in 2011 and created a new wheel fastener that could allow sub 2 second pitstops see them here --> My 2013 F1 Concept Project

imightbewrong
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Re: Flexible wings 2011

Postby imightbewrong » Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:17 pm

I know that someone (can't find the post) suggested using an extension on the top winglet as support for the static load test, but still allow the wing to flex when subjected to the aero pressure. I think this is what Ferrari are doing with their little metallic extension they've had the last few races (click for high res):
Image

If the test is done with a perpendicular load, I think this support will keep the wing from flexing. But see that it is attached (and I don't think its firmly attached, just floating) right on the edge of the black adjuster. With the aero-loads the wing will bend sideways (endplates will move away) and the support won't stop the flexing anymore.

The metallic extension looks aero-neutral to me and shouldn't be a flow conditioner since it is the first thing to hit the air so it shouldn't need "conditioning".

What do you think?

Edit: Or maybe not.. here is another view of it, if you click it to view high res you can see that it is actually entering the support there, not just floating. It should still allow pivoting though..
Image

Mazdaboy
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Re: Flexible wings 2011

Postby Mazdaboy » Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:17 pm

Look at how flexing the top teams front wing!

Image
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siskue2005
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Re: Flexible wings 2011

Postby siskue2005 » Sun Jul 24, 2011 3:56 pm

all the three are flexing, only difference is the RBR has high rake, Ferrari and Merc have normal rake

marcush.
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Re: Flexible wings 2011

Postby marcush. » Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:53 pm

yes indeed ...but you would not expect the wing to gain angle of attack when flexing under aeroload,wouldn´t you? A normal behaviour would be to flex away from the higher forces eg the increase of downforce diminishing with speed ...redBulls wing does actually the opposite ,it does bend into the wind so to speak and will generate additional downforce(if there is no stalling).so in effect the RB design will shift downforce more to the front at higher speeds ...that´s a move towards high speed oversteer (speaking only of the front wing characteristic)..this would indicate they also have a marked increase in downforce generation at the rear and can afford this front wing behaviour (especioally considering their excessive use of DRS in Qualy!).You would think aero wise it is preferable to have a lower speed oversteery charecteristic which is moving more and more towards higher cornering speeds understeer characteristic...the last thing you want to see is a rear to go away from you at high speed cornering,don´t you think so?

so could Mercedes even make use of a RB style front wing charecteristic?

MIKEY_!
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Re: Flexible wings 2011

Postby MIKEY_! » Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:29 am

So what about a flexing wing support (as in the bit that attaches the wing to the nose) surely there is big potential there.
I've found a way of ducting exhaust right to the diffuser edge like in 2011 and created a new wheel fastener that could allow sub 2 second pitstops see them here --> My 2013 F1 Concept Project

marcush.
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Re: Flexible wings 2011

Postby marcush. » Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:09 am

actually I don´t understand why the wing attachment is not done by a vertical attachment face instead of the horizontal mounting face we see today.This would really make for a excellent means of introducing a hinge that is very easy to actuate by drag =vehicle speed and clever placement of the mounting face could
give a staggering rise of AofA plus a dramatic lowering of the leading edge of the wing + it would even be forgiving when touching a curb with the endplate as well..

Mazdaboy
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Re: Flexible wings 2011

Postby Mazdaboy » Sat Jul 30, 2011 5:50 pm

Flexible front wing, Hungaroring

Image
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HampusA
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Re: Flexible wings 2011

Postby HampusA » Sat Aug 06, 2011 12:58 pm

Here´s a great video of the RBR wing.

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