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WhiteBlue wrote:Webber hit Kovi on a dry track due to a misjudgment of the slower cars braking distance.
This is basically the most apt explanation of what happened.
Kovi didn't weave in the braking area (go watch the video if anyone has forgotten) he was veering left into the braking zone as any car would do trying to get around that corner. Webber was very, very close to him and simply got caught out. It almost looks - judging by the way Webber's car weaves right before he hits - that he lacked a bit of braking as well from being so close.
The talk of Kovi should've known he was in a slower car and pulled aside line of thinking is just crap imo. Hundreds or races have been won by drivers in cars which weren't the fastest.
Yeah totally agree. The fact that Kovi moved to the left should have told Webber that he was preparing to brake for the corner. It could have been bad luck that Kovi moved left just as Webber was planning to go around the outside, but it looked more like Webber decided to try and slipstream a bit further down the road and just royally fecked it up. Maybe he was so focussed on the overtake that he lost track of where how close he was to the corner, but whatever the reason it is my belief that this incident was 100% Webber's fault.
Webber screwed up, no doubt in that...although i dont believe heikki is completely blameless, he was defending the un defendable...webber should have cooled his heels and done it somewhere else.
its easy to say he should have seen heikki move accross etc but he was already too close with an unbelieveable closing speed..makes me wonder if heikki did brake or back off early...anyway both at fault imo
seg, i see ur spouting your one eyes crap again...how about givin us some examples instead of bold statements. Stateing that he deserved to die is completely waaaaayyyy over the top and un called for..get a grip man.
Correct me if I'm wrong, I wasn't even born when this driver was competing so I could've misunderstood him...
Mark Webber's driving strikes me as similar to Gilles Villeneuve's. Both are/were not really considered to be the fastest on the grid, both very aggressive, and both willing to take risks that nobody else would.
Gilles Villeneuve had praise heaped upon him for this attitude, with quite a lot of people today saying "why don't we have drivers like Gilles anymore?" He was congratulated for his all-out racing style and drama that he created on track. Yet here we are today, with a driver that has similar traits, but all he seems to get is a select group of people making snide comments.
If my comparison is true, it just goes to show how the attitude of people today is completely different... but then again, we all know that it's the empty vessels that make the most noise
Mysticf1 wrote:its easy to say he should have seen heikki move accross etc but he was already too close with an unbelieveable closing speed..makes me wonder if heikki did brake or back off early...anyway both at fault imo
Thing is though he followed Heikki when he moved over, with approximately the delay you'd expect for him to visually react. At that point he was closing but not dramatically. However maybe half a second after moving over you then see Heikki either lift off the throttle or brake at which point the closing speed does become absolutely massive and Webber doesn't have time or space to react.
He just tried to cut it too fine in his desperation to get past. Heikki had no obligation to drive any differently than he did, it's Webber's duty to overtake cleanly which should have been easy given the performance advantage he held. He just tried to take too much out of the slip stream and got caught out by how early Heikki had to brake for that corner.
flattyre wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, I wasn't even born when this driver was competing so I could've misunderstood him...
Mark Webber's driving strikes me as similar to Gilles Villeneuve's. Both are/were not really considered to be the fastest on the grid, both very aggressive, and both willing to take risks that nobody else would.
Gilles Villeneuve had praise heaped upon him for this attitude, with quite a lot of people today saying "why don't we have drivers like Gilles anymore?" He was congratulated for his all-out racing style and drama that he created on track. Yet here we are today, with a driver that has similar traits, but all he seems to get is a select group of people making snide comments.
If my comparison is true, it just goes to show how the attitude of people today is completely different... but then again, we all know that it's the empty vessels that make the most noise
who would compare Villeneuve with anyone on the grid today..come on.
He was simply outstanding but unfortunatelly he was in F1 before Carbonfibre tubs and crashtesting was mandatory.You always had the confidence :if he was to live long enough for sure this guy was to be World champion more than once...compare with anyone on todays grid.
The only guy who is a bit like him is the Boss.But back then ,death was a definite probability not something that could happen if a lot went wrong.You just cannot compare.
Personally i have created an huge dislike of Webber, imo it is an driver that cant drive fair and normally.
This guy is always complaining about safety on the track while he himself is the most dangerous guy on the track, he is hitting into anyone, and when the first laps dont go well he cannot keep his concentration and keeps making mistake after mistake.
Just a quick list of Webbers unsafe driving:
-2009 Nurburgring, he hits barrichello at the start, this was clearly on purpose, he had the excuse of that he couldnt see him in his rear view mirrors, wow that is weird when he is next to you.
-2010 Australia, He hits hamilton i nthe last laps, this imo wasnt a simple accident, it was purpose, webber tried to enter an hole when he was like 2 carlengths behind, this is also a great example of his lack of concentration.
-2010 Turkey, All blame Vettel, Webber simply didnt give enough space for Vettel.
-2010 Valencia, What the hell, he just simply slams Kovalainnen out of the race, also a great show of lack of concentration, he should have known that the Lotus' braking point is way earlier.
Also there a re a few of Red Bulls actions of unsafe releases, every time such thing happens it is ironicly a Red Bull who is in the situation.
I simply think Red Bull should look for someone else, Webber can be great when his weekend goes well, but when it doesnt he simply is nowhere on the track and makes mistake after mistake, he isnt the ideal driver next to Vettel. There they need a consistent driver wich can back up Vettel, a guy who is there when vettel screws up, and they do not have an guy in Webber there.
wesley123 wrote:Personally i have created an huge dislike of Webber, imo it is an driver that cant drive fair and normally.
This guy is always complaining about safety on the track while he himself is the most dangerous guy on the track, he is hitting into anyone, and when the first laps dont go well he cannot keep his concentration and keeps making mistake after mistake.
Just a quick list of Webbers unsafe driving:
-2009 Nurburgring, he hits barrichello at the start, this was clearly on purpose, he had the excuse of that he couldnt see him in his rear view mirrors, wow that is weird when he is next to you.
-2010 Australia, He hits hamilton i nthe last laps, this imo wasnt a simple accident, it was purpose, webber tried to enter an hole when he was like 2 carlengths behind, this is also a great example of his lack of concentration.
-2010 Turkey, All blame Vettel, Webber simply didnt give enough space for Vettel.
-2010 Valencia, What the hell, he just simply slams Kovalainnen out of the race, also a great show of lack of concentration, he should have known that the Lotus' braking point is way earlier.
Also there a re a few of Red Bulls actions of unsafe releases, every time such thing happens it is ironicly a Red Bull who is in the situation.
I simply think Red Bull should look for someone else, Webber can be great when his weekend goes well, but when it doesnt he simply is nowhere on the track and makes mistake after mistake, he isnt the ideal driver next to Vettel. There they need a consistent driver wich can back up Vettel, a guy who is there when vettel screws up, and they do not have an guy in Webber there.
I fully agree! I never rated Webber, but admit that he surprised me this year, so far. However, just like last year, he falls to pieces under the pressure. He was furious at Vettel beating him for pole, and was still fuming when he went to the grid. That is probably the reason he had a lousy start. Then he had to change strategy, and was in a red mist when he rejoined. Webber is stubborn (witness Turkey)and also quietly arrogant. He made an elementary mistake, and instead of whinging that Kovi braked "early" (which he didnt) he should be holding his hands up and say "I miscalculated"
gilgen wrote:
I fully agree! I never rated Webber, but admit that he surprised me this year, so far. However, just like last year, he falls to pieces under the pressure. He was furious at Vettel beating him for pole, and was still fuming when he went to the grid. That is probably the reason he had a lousy start. Then he had to change strategy, and was in a red mist when he rejoined. Webber is stubborn (witness Turkey)and also quietly arrogant. He made an elementary mistake, and instead of whinging that Kovi braked "early" (which he didnt) he should be holding his hands up and say "I miscalculated"
Kovalainen did say he braked early.
"I think Mark was surprised how early I had to brake for that corner"
The media seemed to portray that Webber and Kovalainen had conflicting opinions, which was a lie.
Up to this point in the season a red-bull racing vs lotus for position was extremely rare and Webber didn't seem to realize how difficult these new cars are to drive.
In my opinion Webber was to impatient and failed to gage the speed of the lotus. He hadn't been behind the lotus for any length of time and rampaged up to the back of him at speed, having had absolutely no indication of his brake distance or the best place to overtake, which only takes a lap to discover. He must have been really frustrated with the beginning of his race and so would I be.
gilgen wrote:
I fully agree! I never rated Webber, but admit that he surprised me this year, so far. However, just like last year, he falls to pieces under the pressure. He was furious at Vettel beating him for pole, and was still fuming when he went to the grid. That is probably the reason he had a lousy start. Then he had to change strategy, and was in a red mist when he rejoined. Webber is stubborn (witness Turkey)and also quietly arrogant. He made an elementary mistake, and instead of whinging that Kovi braked "early" (which he didnt) he should be holding his hands up and say "I miscalculated"
Kovalainen did say he braked early.
"I think Mark was surprised how early I had to brake for that corner"
The media seemed to portray that Webber and Kovalainen had conflicting opinions, which was a lie.
Up to this point in the season a red-bull racing vs lotus for position was extremely rare and Webber didn't seem to realize how difficult these new cars are to drive.
In my opinion Webber was to impatient and failed to gage the speed of the lotus. He hadn't been behind the lotus for any length of time and rampaged up to the back of him at speed, having had absolutely no indication of his brake distance or the best place to overtake, which only takes a lap to discover. He must have been really frustrated with the beginning of his race and so would I be.
Kovi meant that he braked early, COMPARED to Webber. It was his NORMAL braking point, at the 100 board. Webber says he braked 80m early! Does this mean that the Bull only needs 20M?? No wonder he tried to use Kovi as a brake!
marcush. wrote:who would compare Villeneuve with anyone on the grid today..come on.
He was simply outstanding but unfortunatelly he was in F1 before Carbonfibre tubs and crashtesting was mandatory.
Ironically at the time of Gilles death in 1982 the MP4/1 was already on the track and had received numerous real life crash tests by Andrea de Cesaris in 1981. Unfortunately Ferrari was not as much interested in chassis technology as McLaren at that time or the Zandvoort accident might have been survivable.
I agree that Webber is a long way from Gilles Villeneuve as a driver. The top drivers usually make it into a top car faster than Webber did. His team mate Vettel is emulating Villeneuve more in that respect.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best ..............................organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)
Mysticf1 wrote:seg, i see ur spouting your one eyes crap again...how about givin us some examples instead of bold statements.
We've already been through Webber's disastrous collision history before. If you don't know it by now then you never will. His blatant dunch of Barrichello and his late move on Raikkonen in Brazil that could have launch him anywhere are just two examples of his incompetence. He's been like this since the Formula Ford days and his last four races in Formula 3000 were DNFs.
Stateing that he deserved to die is completely waaaaayyyy over the top and un called for..get a grip man.
If anyone is going to die as a result of this imbecile's moves then I hope it's him and not anyone else. In the past this nutcase would have eliminated himself as part of natural selection. Brutal, but true. Webber is playing fast and loose with peoples' live here despite his protestations about safety.
Making sure you're not following directly behind a car into the braking zone of a corner is karting 101. You either make a move alongside or you brake earlier in anticipation. The only other option is that you run into the back of someone which is exactly what happened here.
flattyre wrote:Mark Webber's driving strikes me as similar to Gilles Villeneuve's. Both are/were not really considered to be the fastest on the grid, both very aggressive, and both willing to take risks that nobody else would.
Comparing him to Gilles isn't even funny. The only comparison is that Villeneuve allowed himself to be sucked in by Pironi into not backing off at Zolder and he paid for it. Apart from that Gilles was a model driver in driving fast and closely amongst other cars. Talented drivers can think ahead. Webber cannot.
wesley123 wrote:Personally i have created an huge dislike of Webber, imo it is an driver that cant drive fair and normally.
This guy is always complaining about safety on the track while he himself is the most dangerous guy on the track, he is hitting into anyone, and when the first laps dont go well he cannot keep his concentration and keeps making mistake after mistake.
Just a quick list of Webbers unsafe driving:
-2009 Nurburgring, he hits barrichello at the start, this was clearly on purpose, he had the excuse of that he couldnt see him in his rear view mirrors, wow that is weird when he is next to you.
-2010 Australia, He hits hamilton i nthe last laps, this imo wasnt a simple accident, it was purpose, webber tried to enter an hole when he was like 2 carlengths behind, this is also a great example of his lack of concentration.
-2010 Turkey, All blame Vettel, Webber simply didnt give enough space for Vettel.
-2010 Valencia, What the hell, he just simply slams Kovalainnen out of the race, also a great show of lack of concentration, he should have known that the Lotus' braking point is way earlier.
Also there a re a few of Red Bulls actions of unsafe releases, every time such thing happens it is ironicly a Red Bull who is in the situation.
I simply think Red Bull should look for someone else, Webber can be great when his weekend goes well, but when it doesnt he simply is nowhere on the track and makes mistake after mistake, he isnt the ideal driver next to Vettel. There they need a consistent driver wich can back up Vettel, a guy who is there when vettel screws up, and they do not have an guy in Webber there.
You hit the nail on the head. Heidfeld should get that seat.
