2017 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team - Ferrari

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Juzh
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Re: 2017 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team - Ferrari

Post by Juzh » Sat Jan 07, 2017 7:28 pm

Manoah2u wrote: As for power, the correspondent wrote: "Among other things, the increased fuel allowance will (mean the engine can) achieve and exceed 1000hp, which was already approached last season with peaks of 970-980hp."
Just goes to show how ignorant and disgusting some publications are. Increased fuel allowance will have zero impact on total power output. 100 kg/h fuel flow is staying the same.

scrudriver
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Re: 2017 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team - Ferrari

Post by scrudriver » Sun Jan 08, 2017 4:00 am

Juzh wrote:
Manoah2u wrote: As for power, the correspondent wrote: "Among other things, the increased fuel allowance will (mean the engine can) achieve and exceed 1000hp, which was already approached last season with peaks of 970-980hp."
Just goes to show how ignorant and disgusting some publications are. Increased fuel allowance will have zero impact on total power output. 100 kg/h fuel flow is staying the same.
100 kg/h is the peak fuel flow rate; the average rate over a race is lower. With increased fuel allowance comes increased average flow rate and corresponding power output over a race. Maybe that's what is being referred to.

Juzh
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Re: 2017 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team - Ferrari

Post by Juzh » Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:43 am

scrudriver wrote:
Juzh wrote:
Manoah2u wrote: As for power, the correspondent wrote: "Among other things, the increased fuel allowance will (mean the engine can) achieve and exceed 1000hp, which was already approached last season with peaks of 970-980hp."
Just goes to show how ignorant and disgusting some publications are. Increased fuel allowance will have zero impact on total power output. 100 kg/h fuel flow is staying the same.
100 kg/h is the peak fuel flow rate; the average rate over a race is lower. With increased fuel allowance comes increased average flow rate and corresponding power output over a race. Maybe that's what is being referred to.
No, the average fuel flow in the race will remain the same at 100 kg/h. What additional 5kg of fuel will have an impact on is how much lift and coast you'll see, that's it. Everyone runs max fuel flow in the race pretty much all the time. Remember Ricciardo/redbull fuel flow fiasco from melbourne 2014.

PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2017 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team - Ferrari

Post by PlatinumZealot » Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:47 am

No they dont run max fuel flow in the race. If they did, all the cars would come to standstill after an hour of racing! Now that would be a sight to behold. Heh
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Juzh
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Re: 2017 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team - Ferrari

Post by Juzh » Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:45 am

PlatinumZealot wrote:No they dont run max fuel flow in the race. If they did, all the cars would come to standstill after an hour of racing! Now that would be a sight to behold. Heh
That's assuming tracks are 300 km long straight lines without any turns. There's this thing called braking, and not being on full throttle coming in and out of corners. You'll always be faster running max fuel flow early on the straights and then coast last 100 meters, than to run slower the entire straight with no coast.

dodds_turbo
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Re: 2017 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team - Ferrari

Post by dodds_turbo » Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:21 pm

Juzh wrote:
PlatinumZealot wrote:No they dont run max fuel flow in the race. If they did, all the cars would come to standstill after an hour of racing! Now that would be a sight to behold. Heh
That's assuming tracks are 300 km long straight lines without any turns. There's this thing called braking, and not being on full throttle coming in and out of corners. You'll always be faster running max fuel flow early on the straights and then coast last 100 meters, than to run slower the entire straight with no coast.
Juzh wrote:
PlatinumZealot wrote:No they dont run max fuel flow all the time for all the race the race. If they did, all the cars would come to standstill after an hour of racing! Now that would be a sight to behold. Heh
That's assuming tracks are 300 km long straight lines without any turns. There's this thing called braking, and not being on full throttle coming in and out of corners. You'll always be faster running max fuel flow early on the straights and then coast last 100 meters, than to run slower the entire straight with no coast.
Fixed your comment, @PlatinumZealot, so that Juzh is not confused. :?

@Juzh
2016 Max Fuel Allowance = 100kg.
2016 Max Flow Rate = 100kg/hr. (Not average flow rate)
Therefore all cars would run out of fuel after one hour of 'max fuel flow'.

I presume you meant that with a greater fuel allowance, teams will be able to run at 100kg/hr flow rate more ofter, therefore running a higher average fuel flow rate over the entire race.

Scrudriver has made this point already:
scrudriver wrote: 100 kg/h is the peak fuel flow rate; the average rate over a race is lower. With increased fuel allowance comes increased average flow rate and corresponding power output over a race. Maybe that's what is being referred to.

ME4ME
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Re: 2017 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team - Ferrari

Post by ME4ME » Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:35 pm

Here we are, going into the 4th season with these PU's and there is still confusion about allowance & flow rate :lol:
"There is no strategic solution for a car being off the pace" -F1fanatic

Juzh
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Re: 2017 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team - Ferrari

Post by Juzh » Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:33 pm

ME4ME wrote:Here we are, going into the 4th season with these PU's and there is still confusion about allowance & flow rate :lol:
There's no confusion on my part, expect I worded it poorly.

Instead of this:
Juzh wrote: No, the average fuel flow in the race will remain the same at 100 kg/h.
I should have written this:
Juzh wrote: No, the PEAK fuel flow in the race will remain the same at 100 kg/h.
And thus maximum power in the race will remain the same. 105 kg fuel allowance will have no impact on peak power, that's what I meant.

ME4ME
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Re: 2017 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team - Ferrari

Post by ME4ME » Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:39 pm

One of todays articles on Motorsport.com has some relevance to the discussion:
http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/analy ... es-864078/
According to an engineer, who did not wish his team to be identified, F1's engines will be at full throttle for 70 percent of the lap of Barcelona, whereas last year they were at the limit for only 50 percent.

At the high-speed Monza, simulation data from Magneti Marelli said that 2016 witnessed full throttle for 69 percent of the lap, whereas this year it could be as high as 80 percent.
The 2016 Spanish GP was completed in 1:41:40 which is 6100 seconds.
66 laps were done, meaning an average laptime of 92.4 sec. Total time on wide open throttle was therefor 46.2 seconds.

46,2 seconds a lap, times 66 laps is 3049 seconds, which is 50.8 minutes. This is far below the 60 minutes that are possible at WOT at a fuel flow rate of 100kg/h and and allowance of 100kg of fuel.

In 2017 average laptimes will be quicker. If we assume 4sec/lap, then the average laptime is down to 88.4 sec (which means the race is shorter). If they are on wide open throttle for 70% of the lap, that means 61.9 seconds.

61.9 seconds a lap, times 66 laps is 4085 seconds, which is 68.1 minutes. This is above the 60 minutes that are possible at WOT at a fuel flow rate of 100kg/h and and allowance of 100kg of fuel. It is also above the 63 minutes at WOT that is possible with an allowance of 105kg of fuel. Thus, some fuel-saving needs to be done.

----------------------------------------------------------------

The 2016 Italian GP was completed in 1:17:28 which is 4648 seconds.
53 laps were done, meaning an average laptime of 87.7 sec. Total time on wide open throttle was therefor 60.5 seconds.

60.5 seconds a lap, times 53 laps is 3207 seconds, which is 53.4 minutes. This is far below the 60 minutes that are possible at WOT at a fuel flow rate of 100kg/h and and allowance of 100kg of fuel.

In 2017 average laptimes will be quicker. For Monza, if we assume 2 sec/lap, then the average laptime is down to 85.7 sec. If they are on wide open throttle for 80% of the lap, that means 68.6 seconds.

68.6 seconds a lap, times 53 laps is 3634 seconds, which is 60.6 minutes. This is just above the 60 minutes that are possible at WOT at a fuel flow rate of 100kg/h and and allowance of 100kg of fuel. However, it is below the 63 minutes at WOT that is possible with an allowance of 105kg of fuel.

This does not take pit stops into account, and assumes that the given values in the Motorsport article is for the race, not qualifying. It's pretty clear that races will be more fuel critical in 2017, or that there is less oppurtunity for under-fueling at some races.
"There is no strategic solution for a car being off the pace" -F1fanatic

henry
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Re: 2017 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team - Ferrari

Post by henry » Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:27 pm

Don't forget that as well as the time spent at WOT much of the rest of the lap is spent at part throttle. When I measured last year's pole lap it was 41% full throttle, 18 on brakes and 41 part throttle or coasting.

Juzh
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Re: 2017 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team - Ferrari

Post by Juzh » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:24 pm

henry wrote:Don't forget that as well as the time spent at WOT much of the rest of the lap is spent at part throttle. When I measured last year's pole lap it was 41% full throttle, 18 on brakes and 41 part throttle or coasting.
This.
If throttle was an on/off switch then yes, above calculations (by ME4ME) would give us a pretty good picture of how much fuel would be used. Things however are not that simple as you've said.

Cold Fussion
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Re: 2017 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team - Ferrari

Post by Cold Fussion » Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:53 am

Juzh wrote:
henry wrote:Don't forget that as well as the time spent at WOT much of the rest of the lap is spent at part throttle. When I measured last year's pole lap it was 41% full throttle, 18 on brakes and 41 part throttle or coasting.
This.
If throttle was an on/off switch then yes, above calculations (by ME4ME) would give us a pretty good picture of how much fuel would be used. Things however are not that simple as you've said.
Any extra use of the engine will only make the fuel consumption higher so M34ME's reasonable numbers provide a best case scenario.

godlameroso
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Re: 2017 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team - Ferrari

Post by godlameroso » Thu Jan 12, 2017 12:19 am

ME4ME wrote: The 2016 Spanish GP was completed in 1:41:40 which is 6100 seconds.
66 laps were done, meaning an average laptime of 92.4 sec. Total time on wide open throttle was therefor 46.2 seconds.

46,2 seconds a lap, times 66 laps is 3049 seconds, which is 50.8 minutes. This is far below the 60 minutes that are possible at WOT at a fuel flow rate of 100kg/h and and allowance of 100kg of fuel.

In 2017 average laptimes will be quicker. If we assume 4sec/lap, then the average laptime is down to 88.4 sec (which means the race is shorter). If they are on wide open throttle for 70% of the lap, that means 61.9 seconds.

61.9 seconds a lap, times 66 laps is 4085 seconds, which is 68.1 minutes. This is above the 60 minutes that are possible at WOT at a fuel flow rate of 100kg/h and and allowance of 100kg of fuel. It is also above the 63 minutes at WOT that is possible with an allowance of 105kg of fuel. Thus, some fuel-saving needs to be done.
There was a safety car, and also pit stops you didn't account for -5 laps. The winner had an average lap time of 1:29.8 if you only include the race laps. Also even if you're full throttle it doesn't mean you're at max fuel flow as you can only achieve max fuel flow at 10,500rpm and are forced to work with less at lower rpms.

The extra 5kg will allow you to run at a higher power setting for longer in the race. Maximum power is not sustainable for a whole race, hell it wasn't sustainable back in 2010-2013 either. All this does is give the cars a little more buffer to make up for the increased drag and extra full throttle time, although this may change depending on how much drag the new cars produce and some other factors.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

ME4ME
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Re: 2017 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team - Ferrari

Post by ME4ME » Thu Jan 12, 2017 12:44 am

Of course there are a lot of factors unaccounted for. The numbers claimed by Motorsport and last years race times were the only inputs. The calculations merely hint at what to expect. I think a onboard video analysis as henry mentioned would give some more depth. I'd say feel free and help yourself :)
"There is no strategic solution for a car being off the pace" -F1fanatic

bhall II
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Re: 2017 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team - Ferrari

Post by bhall II » Thu Jan 12, 2017 12:52 am

Scuderia Ferrari, 2019 F1 World Champions
grandprix.com, Jan 11, 2017 wrote:Ferrari president Sergio Marchionne says he plans to retire after 2018.

The 64-year-old took control of Fiat over a decade ago, but his ascendance at Ferrari has been more recent in the wake of Luca di Montezemolo's exit.

But Marchionne, an Italian Canadian, said in 2014 that he will "undoubtedly" retire after 2018.

And during a news conference in Detroit this week, he confirmed that his plans to begin his retirement from early 2019 remain on track.
“I drank what?” —Socrates



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