Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[glenntws]

Using what ever materials in the MGU-H won't have any effect on the ICE. Maybe the housing is casted in the block, but it's not possible to connect the both as much as some of you may think.

Regarding the magnetizable oil: I don't think this is used, it won't help very much and the possibility of seperating the oil would be too high.

Little info: the thread for my engine is now online in the "Engineering Projects" area Have fun reading it (more will come later)

[Singabule]

Hi guys, its better to analyze fact than bashing each other isnt?
What we know about honda:
1 honda start to develop 2017 engine in march 2016
2 they split their resource to develop 2016 engine up to october 2016, in the sake for alonso and suzuka
3 Hasegawa confirm that dyno fully running in dec.
4 at suzuka, certainly mp4-31 lack in rear grip, suspension dancing
5 in winter testing, they bought 2 version of engine, version 0.8 and 0.9. In second week they bought ver 1.0
6 issue in oil tank, electrical component
7 issue in drivability and low power
8 honda is utilizing merc layout with split turbo and merc style VLIM
9 their overhead opening is the smallest one
10 many blue wired censors installed to engine
11 engine shut down after bumps, very rough sound but 'warm sound' at full throttle
12 aggressive cylinder cutting, as usual
13 clatter sound when upshift and when Stoffel broke down.
What else?

[JonoNic]

Using what ever materials in the MGU-H won't have any effect on the ICE. Maybe the housing is casted in the block, but it's not possible to connect the both as much as some of you may think.

Regarding the magnetizable oil: I don't think this is used, it won't help very much and the possibility of seperating the oil would be too high.

Little info: the thread for my engine is now online in the "Engineering Projects" area Have fun reading it (more will come later)

Thanks for your reply. I'm happy with that response

[roon]

Not allowed in the engine.

I we speculate that the H is really integrated in the V, do these same restrictions on the use of the materials apply to it? Or is the H considered separate from the ICE in this special example?

I doubt that parts of the MGUH are part of the ICE.

It would need to be easily removable, in case the H needs replacing but the ICE is fine.

I can see where a tunnel is made in the block for the MGUH to fit through, but I'm not sure if that has any great advantage of having it external but as low as possible in the vee.

Something I've wondered about Merc's arrangement is just how isolated it is from chassis torsion loads. The compressor on the merc seems rigidly mounted to the block. But I wonder if the MGUH casing has some movement allowance.

Having a high speed turboshaft built into the chassis load bearing structures seems like quite a feat.

[roon]

Not allowed in the engine.

I we speculate that the H is really integrated in the V, do these same restrictions on the use of the materials apply to it? Or is the H considered separate from the ICE in this special example?

I doubt that parts of the MGUH are part of the ICE.

It would need to be easily removable, in case the H needs replacing but the ICE is fine.

I can see where a tunnel is made in the block for the MGUH to fit through, but I'm not sure if that has any great advantage of having it external but as low as possible in the vee.

Something I've wondered about Merc's arrangement is just how isolated it is from chassis torsion loads. The compressor on the merc seems rigidly mounted to the block. But I wonder if the MGUH casing has some movement allowance.

Having a high speed turboshaft built into the chassis load bearing structures seems like quite a feat.

2 they split their resource to develop 2016 engine up to october 2016, in the sake for alonso and suzuka

I would assume rather a lot of sake given the previous two seasons.

[Singabule]

Warning: pure speculation ahead, please dont use it for your thesis reference
Innovation in honda engine:
1. Aggressive cylinder cutting, hence load per active cylinder is higher, less complexity to arrange ignition timing in part throttle (less part throttle per active cylinder), in expense of rougher and 'peaky' torque. Improved fuel efficiency.
2. Common Block for both ICE and Mguh, with insulator between them. Could explain their short circuit issue. Not seen on dyno because their ICE is not contacted to ground. Also, very thin layer of insulator provide less moving margin and also increase rate of TC and MGUH failure because of vibration. Benefit would be: lowest (not lower) COG, increase overall stiffness, and the most important is aero (everybody know their overhead opening is the smallest) because they May use same water jacket with their ICE, and utilize the same radiator! =D> wonder why there is soooo many blue censor here in testing (temp and cardiograph)
3. Absolutely they use TJI, the dual anchor! This could explain their low power, bad drivability, detonation on Stoffel. You must analyze why Hasegawa not too panik and still looking confident they can solve this: it is related to ignition and fuel spray timing! This area is the weakest point in honda. Buuuttt its related to software, how to create harmony in their engine. Remember that andy cowel always mention this? He should be very proud of their IT team. Hell, why cant the customers team win with the same equipment with merc? IT IS THEIR SOFTWARE! basically what merc give to customers is a safe mode, with no chance to overclock it.
4. Honda scrap their 2016 engine, so that someone resigned because 2015 and 2016 engine architecture belong to him. Look like he dont believe with honda TJI and put emphasis on exhaust energy, or simply because the double anchor is tooo complicated to work on, especially with zero TJI experience.
5. Hasegawa always said that in upgrading 2016 engine, they put 2017 in mind. It is their New manufacturing technique to create lighter material. Also i think they experimenting in TC (low exhaust energy) to get better understanding with 2017 one. And one mishap for me is their 2016 VLIM, as not used in 2017 engine, what a shame.

[etusch]

Warning: pure speculation ahead, please dont use it for your thesis reference
Innovation in honda engine:
1. Aggressive cylinder cutting, hence load per active cylinder is higher, less complexity to arrange ignition timing in part throttle (less part throttle per active cylinder), in expense of rougher and 'peaky' torque. Improved fuel efficiency.
2. Common Block for both ICE and Mguh, with insulator between them. Could explain their short circuit issue. Not seen on dyno because their ICE is not contacted to ground. Also, very thin layer of insulator provide less moving margin and also increase rate of TC and MGUH failure because of vibration. Benefit would be: lowest (not lower) COG, increase overall stiffness, and the most important is aero (everybody know their overhead opening is the smallest) because they May use same water jacket with their ICE, and utilize the same radiator! =D> wonder why there is soooo many blue censor here in testing (temp and cardiograph)
3. Absolutely they use TJI, the dual anchor! This could explain their low power, bad drivability, detonation on Stoffel. You must analyze why Hasegawa not too panik and still looking confident they can solve this: it is related to ignition and fuel spray timing! This area is the weakest point in honda. Buuuttt its related to software, how to create harmony in their engine. Remember that andy cowel always mention this? He should be very proud of their IT team. Hell, why cant the customers team win with the same equipment with merc? IT IS THEIR SOFTWARE! basically what merc give to customers is a safe mode, with no chance to overclock it.
4. Honda scrap their 2016 engine, so that someone resigned because 2015 and 2016 engine architecture belong to him. Look like he dont believe with honda TJI and put emphasis on exhaust energy, or simply because the double anchor is tooo complicated to work on, especially with zero TJI experience.
5. Hasegawa always said that in upgrading 2016 engine, they put 2017 in mind. It is their New manufacturing technique to create lighter material. Also i think they experimenting in TC (low exhaust energy) to get better understanding with 2017 one. And one mishap for me is their 2016 VLIM, as not used in 2017 engine, what a shame.

To read this kind of things restore my believe on Honda. I was sure they do something different and this cause some issues but I don't know what kind of different things.

[torpor]

There's a word for what you're doing:
calculated optimism

[wuzak]

There's a word for what you're doing:
calculated optimism

Doesn't that describe the general excitement and interest in the Honda Power Unit thread?

For comparison:
Ferrari PU - 35 pages
Mercedes PU - 56 pages
Renault PU - 93 pages
Honda PU - 452 pages

Almost the inverse of their performance ranking.

[wuzak]

3. Absolutely they use TJI, the dual anchor! This could explain their low power, bad drivability, detonation on Stoffel. You must analyze why Hasegawa not too panik and still looking confident they can solve this: it is related to ignition and fuel spray timing! This area is the weakest point in honda. Buuuttt its related to software, how to create harmony in their engine. Remember that andy cowel always mention this? He should be very proud of their IT team. Hell, why cant the customers team win with the same equipment with merc? IT IS THEIR SOFTWARE! basically what merc give to customers is a safe mode, with no chance to overclock it.

So, they have jumped from having no TJI to having the latest and greatest TJI system?

I doubt that the "double anchor" system would explain their issues any more than them using a new, to them, combustion concept which they have worked out properly yet.

Oh, and Mercedes' customer teams can't win with the same PU because next to Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull they are not so great in the chassis and aero departments.

[wuzak]

9 their overhead opening is the smallest one

I wouldn't read too much into that.

Many of the teams use the overhead inlet to provide air to one or more coolers, so the inlet is much bigger than is required to feed air to the engine.

Ferrari are another team which only uses the overhead inlet to provide air for the engine.

[dren]

You'd think Honda would have some idea of how their CVCC system worked years ago. Of course operating conditions are vastly different, but still a similar underlying theory.

[diffuser]

9 their overhead opening is the smallest one

I wouldn't read too much into that.

Many of the teams use the overhead inlet to provide air to one or more coolers, so the inlet is much bigger than is required to feed air to the engine.

Ferrari are another team which only uses the overhead inlet to provide air for the engine.

I think it could be big... Look at the side pods, the entries are small as well. I find the rear exit is very large. Which leads me to beleive it will change next week.

[Singabule]

Yeah, all of this coming from my first impression on listening and reading so much info regarding their engine, asian culture, soichiro Way, cowel insight, and wazari comment. So they are doing honda Way, to put emphasis on breakthrough and pushing boundaries. Hell, this is also inline with their lack of testing, basically waayyy too much innovation with their engine, splitting resources wouldnt help as well. Result is: KABOOM

[Singabule]

There's a word for what you're doing:
calculated optimism

Now you understand why i bet both MCL finish in AUS with Stoffel scoring points.