F4 crash Billy Monger

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
adrianjordan
29
User avatar
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2010 10:34 am
Location: West Yorkshire, England

Re: F4 crash Billy Monger

Post by adrianjordan » Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:05 pm

Maybe one did. But maybe not through the Justgiving page and maybe they did so on condition of it not being released to the press.

These are racing drivers, not politicians and there is no real advantage to them promoting their charitable donations.
In 2007 I had the chance to go to a meet-and-greet with an F1 test driver. I decided not to as I didn't think he'd even amount to much...he was the BMW Sauber test driver and his name was Sebastian Vettel...

adrianjordan
29
User avatar
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2010 10:34 am
Location: West Yorkshire, England

Re: F4 crash Billy Monger

Post by adrianjordan » Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:06 pm

Andres125sx wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:57 am
OMG this is shocking, poor boy

Thanks god current cars are really safe, some time ago that crash would have ended up with someone death
It says a lot for the advances we've had in trauma care in the UK as well.
In 2007 I had the chance to go to a meet-and-greet with an F1 test driver. I decided not to as I didn't think he'd even amount to much...he was the BMW Sauber test driver and his name was Sebastian Vettel...

Just_a_fan
243
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: F4 crash Billy Monger

Post by Just_a_fan » Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:27 pm

adrianjordan wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:05 pm
Maybe one did. But maybe not through the Justgiving page and maybe they did so on condition of it not being released to the press.

These are racing drivers, not politicians and there is no real advantage to them promoting their charitable donations.
There is also the issue that if a big name drops a massive donation on a just giving page, it risks people not donating to others. The attitude of "a "star" will give them £100,000 so no need for me to give".

A donation of £15k might seem poor when the donor has millions in the bank, but they can't give large sums to every good cause or they'd be broke too.

Gates is the wealthiest person on the planet and he doesn't give every cent away...
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools."

Just_a_fan
243
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: F4 crash Billy Monger

Post by Just_a_fan » Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:28 pm

adrianjordan wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:06 pm
Andres125sx wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:57 am
OMG this is shocking, poor boy

Thanks god current cars are really safe, some time ago that crash would have ended up with someone death
It says a lot for the advances we've had in trauma care in the UK as well.
I hate to say it but some of that will have been learnt on the battlefield in Iraq and Afghanistan. Treating mine blasted limbs is probably similar to this sort of injury.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools."

n_anirudh
26
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 1:43 am

Re: F4 crash Billy Monger

Post by n_anirudh » Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:05 pm

Really feel for the kid. I hope he gets back to racing and such incidents in F4 are avoided. There will be plenty of support from the motorsport community in the following days and I hope he can recover to lead a near normal life after rehab.

Secondly, I really hope FIA looks into strengthening the chassis and more stringent crash tests are conducted. I did read that HANS and wheel tethers had filtered down from F1 to other racing series and similar safety practices need to be adopted.

http://www.brscc.co.uk/Championships/FO ... AMPIONSHIP
Carbon fibre monocoque chassis, designed to meet exacting FIA safety standards, produced by leading European manufacturer Mygale

adrianjordan
29
User avatar
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2010 10:34 am
Location: West Yorkshire, England

Re: F4 crash Billy Monger

Post by adrianjordan » Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:25 pm

Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:28 pm
adrianjordan wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:06 pm
Andres125sx wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:57 am
OMG this is shocking, poor boy

Thanks god current cars are really safe, some time ago that crash would have ended up with someone death
It says a lot for the advances we've had in trauma care in the UK as well.
I hate to say it but some of that will have been learnt on the battlefield in Iraq and Afghanistan. Treating mine blasted limbs is probably similar to this sort of injury.
I'd go further and say most of it will have been. At work we now carry Combat Application Tourniquets as well as blast dressings and pressure dressings as well as TXA that all came to prominence thanks to military medics.
In 2007 I had the chance to go to a meet-and-greet with an F1 test driver. I decided not to as I didn't think he'd even amount to much...he was the BMW Sauber test driver and his name was Sebastian Vettel...

Chuckjr
28
User avatar
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:34 am

Re: F4 crash Billy Monger

Post by Chuckjr » Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:19 pm

Does F4 have the same front impact structure requirements as F1? We all know the struggle F1 teams have meeting that requirement...do F4 designers experience the same challenge?

langwadt
61
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:54 pm

Re: F4 crash Billy Monger

Post by langwadt » Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:44 pm

Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:27 pm
adrianjordan wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:05 pm
Maybe one did. But maybe not through the Justgiving page and maybe they did so on condition of it not being released to the press.

These are racing drivers, not politicians and there is no real advantage to them promoting their charitable donations.
There is also the issue that if a big name drops a massive donation on a just giving page, it risks people not donating to others. The attitude of "a "star" will give them £100,000 so no need for me to give".

A donation of £15k might seem poor when the donor has millions in the bank, but they can't give large sums to every good cause or they'd be broke too.
The stars can't win that game, give some and there will always be someone that thinks it is not enough, give a lot and some will think is it showing off, give anonymously and some will think they are cheap and didn't give

Just_a_fan
243
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: F4 crash Billy Monger

Post by Just_a_fan » Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:10 pm

Chuckjr wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:19 pm
Does F4 have the same front impact structure requirements as F1? We all know the struggle F1 teams have meeting that requirement...do F4 designers experience the same challenge?
The whole chassis, including the front and rear crash structures, is homologated by the FIA. The price of each component is also set by the FIA - the front crash structure is priced at Euro1550, the rear is Euro1400, for example. The British F4 championship uses the Mygale F4 chassis package which is apparently designed around the FIA's F3 safety requirements - one would expect that to be higher than F4.

I doubt the F3 or F4 crash structure requirements are as stringent as F1's because the speeds are lower and the cars are lighter.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools."

Just_a_fan
243
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: F4 crash Billy Monger

Post by Just_a_fan » Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:14 pm

adrianjordan wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:25 pm

I'd go further and say most of it will have been. At work we now carry Combat Application Tourniquets as well as blast dressings and pressure dressings as well as TXA that all came to prominence thanks to military medics.
Interesting. I've just looked up the CAT and it looks like a clever bit of kit.
Are you a "first responder"?
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools."

adrianjordan
29
User avatar
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2010 10:34 am
Location: West Yorkshire, England

Re: F4 crash Billy Monger

Post by adrianjordan » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:18 pm

Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:14 pm
adrianjordan wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:25 pm

I'd go further and say most of it will have been. At work we now carry Combat Application Tourniquets as well as blast dressings and pressure dressings as well as TXA that all came to prominence thanks to military medics.
Interesting. I've just looked up the CAT and it looks like a clever bit of kit.
Are you a "first responder"?
Paramedic for the local NHS Ambulance Service
In 2007 I had the chance to go to a meet-and-greet with an F1 test driver. I decided not to as I didn't think he'd even amount to much...he was the BMW Sauber test driver and his name was Sebastian Vettel...

FrukostScones
153
User avatar
Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 4:41 pm
Location: European Union

Re: F4 crash Billy Monger

Post by FrukostScones » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:42 pm

damn, very crash, sadly not as lucky as Peter Li Zhi Cong going airbone in the impact.
I think in this matter F1 is also not very safe. F4 monocqoue already look quite bulky. Definitely an issue FIA must look into, if they want to mak that "not to happen ever again".
Last time I remeber F1 monocoque broke to pieces was Kubica and also Sato-Heidfeld was nasty too, but they came with those anti-intrusion layers...
I think for betty security they could make the tub wider, longer and thicker,studier; and suspension mounts never ever should be able to pierce the moncoque to reach the drivers feet (not saying this happened in the Monger crash), but this should never ever happen. I hope FIA will take crash norms and testing to the next level now, not like the "civilian automakers which scenarios are a big joke, glued self supporting frames.. just to meet the crash test norm (-and standard scenario) and then.. disintegrate, but that is another story.
I hope this young mans story will be a wake up call. I wish him well.
Game Over! NVWSSV is here.

ergenomic
2
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 7:41 am

Re: F4 crash Billy Monger

Post by ergenomic » Mon Apr 24, 2017 12:46 pm

1,000 Pounds from AM Newey

turbof1
Moderator
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:36 pm

Re: F4 crash Billy Monger

Post by turbof1 » Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:35 pm

Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:10 pm
Chuckjr wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:19 pm
Does F4 have the same front impact structure requirements as F1? We all know the struggle F1 teams have meeting that requirement...do F4 designers experience the same challenge?
The whole chassis, including the front and rear crash structures, is homologated by the FIA. The price of each component is also set by the FIA - the front crash structure is priced at Euro1550, the rear is Euro1400, for example. The British F4 championship uses the Mygale F4 chassis package which is apparently designed around the FIA's F3 safety requirements - one would expect that to be higher than F4.

I doubt the F3 or F4 crash structure requirements are as stringent as F1's because the speeds are lower and the cars are lighter.
I like to pick up on that.

First off, to get a better assessment of the crash, I rewatched the video of the crash. I'll leave a link here, but will not embed in the youtube tags as it's quite horrible and out of respect; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vu1ieQUgqfc

Next, I also tried to look up for info of the chassis. It's a Dome f110.

rear crash structure:
Image

windtunnel model showing how long the front crash structure actually extends to the back:
Image

Stripped down car to monocoque:
Image

So watching the video, the car did not smash head first with its front crash structure into the rear crash structure of the car in front, but into the tyre (I believe). If it was a case of head on front to rear crash structure, the consequences might have panned out differently as there was effectively more structure to absorb the forces. Of course this is hindsight, and the natural reaction is to take evasive action.

The next thing is that the crash structure is quite big and bulky. While F1 struggled to meet the requirements because of its competitive nature, a F4 car which is the saem homologated car over the entire field, should not have any issues meeting the same requirements. As far as I can see the whole front crash structure got 'crumbled' into nothing (as far as I can see; I do not think the crash structure got ripped off instead). Also with the exception of perhaps a concussion Billy did not suffer a trauma to the brain, meaning the crash structure should have deaccelerated properly atleast. We saw with Bianchi too much deacceleration leads to a brain trauma.

So I'm not quite sure what transpired here that led to the critical damage to his legs. Possible hypotheses are:
-That the deaccelerates still was quite high. In that case the crash structure needs to be rethought.
-Sharp bodywork/suspension pieces penetrated the monocoque.
-The monocoque crumbled.

My feeling is that you are going to have to look at the monocoque. Something about it must have exposed Billy's legs directly to either the sheer forces, or flying around pieces. Normally the legs are completely sealed off the outside as the chassis bulkhead is closed off. Given my impression that the crash structure worked, the survival cell is at blame here. I could be absolutely wrong, but if his legs were not exposed he might have just ended up with broken bones in his legs.

RicME85
58
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:11 pm
Location: Derby

Re: F4 crash Billy Monger

Post by RicME85 » Mon Apr 24, 2017 4:37 pm

I could be absolutely wrong, but if his legs were not exposed he might have just ended up with broken bones in his legs.
Could be that that is all it was but the bones in his lower legs where just too badly broken to repair



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: CCBot [Bot] and 5 guests