Influence of Pirelli tyre pressure on 2017 contenders

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zac510
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Re: Influence of Pirelli tyre pressure on 2017 contenders

Post by zac510 » Fri Jun 09, 2017 11:46 am

Phil wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2017 3:31 pm
However unfair or not, I think at some point teams will have to realize that it's just the way it is and that the pressures requirements have been lowered changing the characteristics slightly. It's no different than 2013, when the construction of the tire was changed mid season on safety grounds. The question is; can Mercedes solve their tire issues or is it so within the DNA of the car and the design choices that they have made that it will not be solvable?
I hope that some fans can move on, too. Sometimes it's just the way the cookie crumbles, be it an engine explosion, timing of a safety car, a rain shower.. This aspect is what creates varying race results but also why we have 20 races, to account for bad luck.

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Re: Influence of Pirelli tyre pressure on 2017 contenders

Post by rscsr » Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:02 pm

WaikeCU wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2017 11:43 am
Actually, I find it quite wrong to have only 3 teams testing the Pirelli compound out for the following season in the early stage. I believe Ferrari were first and then Merc and Red Bull. It actually took quite some time before other teams managed to get to know the new Pirelli compound. I think it was the test at Abu Dhabi after the final race. If your look at the performance order this day, then those 3 teams are still the front runners.
...
I thought Pirelli asked some more teams to build a mule but only those 3 teams decided to test with the mule cars.
Williams was asked, but they decided not to build one due to monetary issues and McLaren also didn't want to.
Williams
McLaren
Last edited by rscsr on Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W08 EQ Power +

Post by Mandrake » Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:42 pm

ENGINE TUNER wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2017 2:02 pm
LionKing wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2017 1:29 pm
The point is he is not making any, pretty much ranting in most of his posts.

The tires are the same tires, Pirelli has not changed them. Pirelli is just letting teams to use an operating range which has been shown to be safe so far with no blowups or no other evident issues.

Why should they artificially mandate higher minimum pressures if the tires can handle a broader range? As it has been repeated many many times, anyone who wishes can go above the minimum mandates pressures, can just do so.

Secondly the cars are not designed in February, but long time before that. No F1 tire rule that was tweaked in the last minute to hinder any team or another.
There is no ranting, refute my points.

The tires do not behave the same with different tire pressures so therefore they are not the "same" tires, again, if they behaved the same with lower tire pressures then why change them? Changing the tire pressures midseason or even mid race weekend is wrong and something pirelli should not be doing except for only in the case of safety.

How are they "artificially higher"? They are what pirelli prescribed at the beginning of the weekend. Is the pit lane speed limit "artificially low"? Should the FIA be allowed to raise it in the middle of the race after 1 team has pitted while another hasn't?

Lowering the minimum pressures likely makes EVERYONE faster, but it also likely makes some go "more faster" than others. For example, if the lower pressure make Merc .5s faster and Ferrari 1.5s faster Merc will still run the lower pressure but it is not fair to change them mid race weekend.

No the cars are not designed in Feb, but that is when the initial tire testing was done and with another test in Bahrain that is when the teams had the opportunity to optimize their cars for the actual tires that pirelli provided with the actual cars that the teams produced. Moving the goalposts after those tests is wrong and can be viewed as biased. The tire allocations for the first 5 races were fixed because of the unfamiliarity with the new 2017 tire spec in the name of fairness but now they are throwing all fairness out of the window by changing the minimum tire pressure between practice and qually. It is wrong.

If the tires are the same regardless of the minimum tire pressure then why are they changing them between practice and the race? If it isn't for safety, which it is not, then it is clearly to advantange some team over another.

Refute my points.
Can you show some evidence please that the minimum tire pressures in preseason testing AND in Bahrain were higher than what is now driven in the races? In the Bahrain test they will not have run higher minimum pressures than in the race I'm sure. And from my memory in preseason testing the minimum pressures were also lower than in the beginning of the spain weekend. And they even had different tires (UltraSoft). So there was plenty of opportunity for everyone to test the tires and gain enough of an understanding.

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Re: Influence of Pirelli tyre pressure on 2017 contenders

Post by Big Mangalhit » Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:03 pm

Yeah that makes no sense at all. If there is a place where teams and Pirelli want to test the limits of pressure is testing where there are no penalties and well... you test. So having even a directive mandating pressures seems like BS. I have never seen it mentioned anywhere. Even if there is any team can just ignore it since there are no penalties.

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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W08 EQ Power +

Post by torpor » Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:53 pm

CBeck113 wrote:
Wed May 31, 2017 7:19 pm
torpor wrote:
Wed May 31, 2017 7:07 pm
The Mercedes engineers worked so hard and invested so much passion, time and money to design such a great piece of tech.
And then comes the fourth-rate backyard tire manufacturer who is overwhelmed by the new regularities again. Will Pirelli need another four years to develop a working tire?
The tire works, ask Ferrari...
They work for Ferrari just because they built an extra mule car just for testing the 2017 tires in 2016.
Red Bull and MB also made the tires work. But the systems where so complex and expensive that it's forbidden.

Just imagine a private car manufacturer develops a car just to work with a specific type of tires...

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Re: Influence of Pirelli tyre pressure on 2017 contenders

Post by CBeck113 » Sat Jun 10, 2017 12:30 am

No, they work for Ferrari because they did the best job of preparing for the new tires, although the other teams had the same opportunity (this was also the argument about Mercedes dominating the past three seasons, which makes it very appropriate).
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" R. W. Emerson

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Re: Influence of Pirelli tyre pressure on 2017 contenders

Post by ENGINE TUNER » Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:02 pm

CBeck113 wrote:
Sat Jun 10, 2017 12:30 am
No, they work for Ferrari because they did the best job of preparing for the new tires, although the other teams had the same opportunity (this was also the argument about Mercedes dominating the past three seasons, which makes it very appropriate).
How exactly did ferrari do the "best job of preparing for the new tires"?

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Re: Influence of Pirelli tyre pressure on 2017 contenders

Post by godlameroso » Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:35 pm

Being able to use the tires better than others is easily worth a second and change. Anyone that gets an advantage there is definitely sitting pretty, as only Red Bull, Mercedes, and Ferrari used mules to test the new tires, you can clearly see who's leading at the moment. The gap to everyone else is partly to do with the tires.
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Re: Influence of Pirelli tyre pressure on 2017 contenders

Post by henry » Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:16 pm

godlameroso wrote:
Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:35 pm
Being able to use the tires better than others is easily worth a second and change. Anyone that gets an advantage there is definitely sitting pretty, as only Red Bull, Mercedes, and Ferrari used mules to test the new tires, you can clearly see who's leading at the moment. The gap to everyone else is partly to do with the tires.
I think you're confusing chicken and egg. The reason Ferrari, Mercedes and Red Bull are the leading teams is the same reason they built mules. They can afford it. Money makes a significant part of the difference between those having podiums and the have nots.

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Re: Influence of Pirelli tyre pressure on 2017 contenders

Post by godlameroso » Sat Jun 10, 2017 5:08 pm

I don't doubt that's one way to look at it, you can also acknowledge that testing the tires before everyone else can give you a head start, not just on designing the car around the tires from an aero point of view, but also a head start in determining their mechanical properties.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

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Re: Influence of Pirelli tyre pressure on 2017 contenders

Post by ENGINE TUNER » Sun Jun 18, 2017 12:36 pm

Just to combat most of the nonsense in this thread

http://www.grandprix247.com/2017/06/14/ ... t-testing/

Amid suggestions that Ferrari benefited more than their rivals from Pirelli testing last year, Pirelli chief Paul Hembery chief has denied this is the case.

It is well known that Ferrari did the bulk of testing last year to help develop the 2017 wider tyres, with Sebastian Vettel particularly enthusiastic to help out.

He covered over 2,000 km for Pirelli during testing of this year’s tyres, while Mercedes racked up a mere 250 km. The Silver Arrows drivers – Lewis Hamilton and Nico Rosberg – were reluctant to give their time to tyre testing, while Vettel seized the chance whenever he could.

However, Hembery does not believe that as a result of this Ferrari now enjoy an advantage, he told the official F1 website, “Yes, Sebastian did a lot of testing. It was very intense and he gave us a lot of feedback. We thank him for that. That is what we wanted: the top drivers giving us good feedback.”

“But because he didn’t really know what he was testing – he was blind-testing – it might have helped him psychologically, but I doubt it helped practically.”

Vettel leads the championship after seven rounds and Ferrari appear to be able to get their tyres into a optimal working window more efficiently than their rivals, specifically Mercedes who have struggled on this front.

Hembery explained, “Actually Mercedes’ issue is linked a bit to certain circuits: in Barcelona they were fine – and in Silverstone and Spa they will be as well. It’s the lower-grip circuits where they’ve had a few more problems, but I am sure they will resolve any issues as we go through the season.”

Whatever the case everything clicked for Mercedes in Montreal, at the low grip Circuit Gilles Villeneuve, as they claimed their first one-two of the season and now it remains to be seen if they have solved the problem that afflicted their drivers in the early races of the season.

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Re: Influence of Pirelli tyre pressure on 2017 contenders

Post by SR71 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:00 am

ENGINE TUNER wrote:
Sun Jun 18, 2017 12:36 pm
Just to combat most of the nonsense in this thread

http://www.grandprix247.com/2017/06/14/ ... t-testing/

Amid suggestions that Ferrari benefited more than their rivals from Pirelli testing last year, Pirelli chief Paul Hembery chief has denied this is the case.

It is well known that Ferrari did the bulk of testing last year to help develop the 2017 wider tyres, with Sebastian Vettel particularly enthusiastic to help out.

He covered over 2,000 km for Pirelli during testing of this year’s tyres, while Mercedes racked up a mere 250 km. The Silver Arrows drivers – Lewis Hamilton and Nico Rosberg – were reluctant to give their time to tyre testing, while Vettel seized the chance whenever he could.

However, Hembery does not believe that as a result of this Ferrari now enjoy an advantage, he told the official F1 website, “Yes, Sebastian did a lot of testing. It was very intense and he gave us a lot of feedback. We thank him for that. That is what we wanted: the top drivers giving us good feedback.”

“But because he didn’t really know what he was testing – he was blind-testing – it might have helped him psychologically, but I doubt it helped practically.”

Vettel leads the championship after seven rounds and Ferrari appear to be able to get their tyres into a optimal working window more efficiently than their rivals, specifically Mercedes who have struggled on this front.

Hembery explained, “Actually Mercedes’ issue is linked a bit to certain circuits: in Barcelona they were fine – and in Silverstone and Spa they will be as well. It’s the lower-grip circuits where they’ve had a few more problems, but I am sure they will resolve any issues as we go through the season.”

Whatever the case everything clicked for Mercedes in Montreal, at the low grip Circuit Gilles Villeneuve, as they claimed their first one-two of the season and now it remains to be seen if they have solved the problem that afflicted their drivers in the early races of the season.

Good, now that we (you) are using official comments as source and fact from Pirelli we can also put to bed your conspiracy that pirelli are favoriting certain teams by adjusting tire pressures.

I point to your own source above as evidence that pirelli is completely innocent and you must agree correct?

Now we can all move on.

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Re: Influence of Pirelli tyre pressure on 2017 contenders

Post by GPR-A » Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:53 am

SR71 wrote:
Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:00 am
ENGINE TUNER wrote:
Sun Jun 18, 2017 12:36 pm
Just to combat most of the nonsense in this thread

http://www.grandprix247.com/2017/06/14/ ... t-testing/

Amid suggestions that Ferrari benefited more than their rivals from Pirelli testing last year, Pirelli chief Paul Hembery chief has denied this is the case.

It is well known that Ferrari did the bulk of testing last year to help develop the 2017 wider tyres, with Sebastian Vettel particularly enthusiastic to help out.

He covered over 2,000 km for Pirelli during testing of this year’s tyres, while Mercedes racked up a mere 250 km. The Silver Arrows drivers – Lewis Hamilton and Nico Rosberg – were reluctant to give their time to tyre testing, while Vettel seized the chance whenever he could.

However, Hembery does not believe that as a result of this Ferrari now enjoy an advantage, he told the official F1 website, “Yes, Sebastian did a lot of testing. It was very intense and he gave us a lot of feedback. We thank him for that. That is what we wanted: the top drivers giving us good feedback.”

“But because he didn’t really know what he was testing – he was blind-testing – it might have helped him psychologically, but I doubt it helped practically.”

Vettel leads the championship after seven rounds and Ferrari appear to be able to get their tyres into a optimal working window more efficiently than their rivals, specifically Mercedes who have struggled on this front.

Hembery explained, “Actually Mercedes’ issue is linked a bit to certain circuits: in Barcelona they were fine – and in Silverstone and Spa they will be as well. It’s the lower-grip circuits where they’ve had a few more problems, but I am sure they will resolve any issues as we go through the season.”

Whatever the case everything clicked for Mercedes in Montreal, at the low grip Circuit Gilles Villeneuve, as they claimed their first one-two of the season and now it remains to be seen if they have solved the problem that afflicted their drivers in the early races of the season.

Good, now that we (you) are using official comments as source and fact from Pirelli we can also put to bed your conspiracy that pirelli are favoriting certain teams by adjusting tire pressures.

I point to your own source above as evidence that pirelli is completely innocent and you must agree correct?

Now we can all move on.
Where does that article quell the conspiracy theory of Pirelli favoring certain teams? It only tells the world, BY VETTEL DOING ALL THE TESTING, still wouldn't be in any better position than other teams who have received all the information. That's all it says.

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Re: Influence of Pirelli tyre pressure on 2017 contenders

Post by ENGINE TUNER » Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:49 pm

SR71 wrote:
Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:00 am
Good, now that we (you) are using official comments as source and fact from Pirelli we can also put to bed your conspiracy that pirelli are favoriting certain teams by adjusting tire pressures.

I point to your own source above as evidence that pirelli is completely innocent and you must agree correct?

Now we can all move on.
Hembry did not once mention tire pressures in that story, the above "evidence" has no bearing on whether the constant changing of tire pressures mid weekend is affecting some teams more than others whether positively or negatively.

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Re: Influence of Pirelli tyre pressure on 2017 contenders

Post by SR71 » Wed Jun 21, 2017 12:19 am

ENGINE TUNER wrote:
Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:49 pm
SR71 wrote:
Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:00 am
Good, now that we (you) are using official comments as source and fact from Pirelli we can also put to bed your conspiracy that pirelli are favoriting certain teams by adjusting tire pressures.

I point to your own source above as evidence that pirelli is completely innocent and you must agree correct?

Now we can all move on.
Hembry did not once mention tire pressures in that story, the above "evidence" has no bearing on whether the constant changing of tire pressures mid weekend is affecting some teams more than others whether positively or negatively.
Tires are the single most influencing performance factor of an F1 car and have been for some time.

Any adjustment to the single most influencing performance factor is going to affect someone. Who would even argue that?

You're argument of collusion between pirelli and certain teams is baseless and completely unsupported by a shred of evidence.

Pirelli is influencing 2017 results - but they are doing it for the good of the show and reacting to new information they have about the technology they have spent millions developing. They have marching orders from F1, they are executing.



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