2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
gruntguru
gruntguru
564
Joined: 21 Feb 2009, 07:43

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

Post

Mudflap wrote:
01 May 2017, 23:56
gruntguru wrote:
01 May 2017, 07:10
Mudflap wrote:
29 Apr 2017, 01:19

A cylinder head that leaks oil, yes.
No - a cylinder head that leaks no oil. Think about it and see your mistake before critiquing the engineering abilities of others.
Suppose you have a cylinder with bore b and stroke s and a single piston.
You have another engine with 2 cylinders, same bore b and half the stroke.

The 2 cylinder engine has 2 times more rings and implicitly 2 times more ring gap area and 2 times more groove vertical clearance area.

Which engine has a higher oil consumption and higher ring pack friction ?
Ah - so you want to compare oil consumption of an engine with twice as many pistons and half the displacement per piston? I suppose that would use a bit more oil but it would be higher revving and make more power . . no I don't see the point - best to compare the oil consumption of two engines with the same number of pistons and the same displacement per piston etc.
je suis charlie

manolis
manolis
107
Joined: 18 Mar 2014, 10:00

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

Post

Hello all.


In the #1498 post, the plot:

Image

gives the lubricant consumption (the measurements were performed in the labs of Achates Power) of the dual-sided-crankshaft Opposed Piston engine of Achates:

Image

Note:
It is not the specific lube consumption (gr of lubricant per kWh of energy provided); the lube consumption is provided as a percentage of the fuel consumption.

According these lab test results, the specific Opposed Piston engine (two crankshafts arranged at the sides of the cylinder, multiple connecting rods, piston skirt to cylinder liner: rid of thrust loads) has, “across the entire operating map”, a comparable to the state-of-the-art 4-stroke Diesels lube consumption.




In the page #101 of this discussion, it was mentioned the Diesel (or VW) Scandal according which some diesel cars were measured to emit several times more NOx in the real-world driving.

Regarding the NOx and the 2-stroke Diesel engines, here is a QUOTE from Achates Power:

The Achates Power Engine: Low NOx and Superior Efficiency

Image

by Dr. Gerhard Regner
Vice President, Performance and Emissions, Achates Power, Inc.

Diesel engines have many virtues, including excellent fuel economy, great low-end torque and superior durability. They tend, though, to be more expensive than gasoline engines. One reason: for cars and trucks to meet global emissions standards, diesel engines need expensive aftertreatment equipment. The two most problematic diesel engine pollutants are NOx and particulate matter (PM). NOx—the general name for nitric oxide (NO) and nitrogen dioxide (NO2)—and PM have a somewhat inverse relationship. With low combustion temperatures, PM is higher and NOx is lower. With high combustion temperatures, NOx is higher and PM is lower.

Diesel engine manufacturers have several ways to reduce NOx emissions. Most on-highway cars and trucks in the U.S. and Europe use a selective catalyst reduction (SCR) system to convert NOx into nitrogen (N2) and water. In addition, many of these engines also employ exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) to impede the formation of NOx during combustion. Since oxygen is used up in the course of combustion, the gas remaining after combustion has low oxygen content. When this exhaust gas is put back into the combustion chamber, it reduces the temperature of combustion by diluting the oxygen concentration, impeding NOx formation.

The opposed-piston, two-stroke engine developed by Achates Power has inherent advantages in low NOx operation. There are several reasons for this. The first is that the Achates Power engine has good power density because it operates on a two-stroke cycle (each cylinder has a power stroke during each revolution of the engine). The power density can be used to either reduce the displacement of the engine (that is, generating the same power from a smaller engine) or to reduce the engine working pressure (usually measured as brake mean effective pressure, or BMEP)—or some combination of both. For example, when we design an engine to replace a medium-duty engine, like the Navistar MaxxForce 7 or the 6.7L Cummins ISB, we could create an engine with the same BMEP and half the displacement (3.35L) or we could develop an engine with the same displacement but half the BMEP (Note: When comparing BMEP between a two-stroke and four-stroke engine, one must cut the BMEP of the four-stroke engine in half because it’s the BMEP only during the compression and expansion stroke of the four-stroke engine that is compared). Based on considerations of size, cost and efficiency, the right balance is almost always somewhere in the middle of these two extremes (see below).

Image

Engine developers calibrate their engines by varying EGR rates, injection timing, injection pressure and other factors to optimize fuel economy while meeting mandated emission levels—taking into account emissions reduction offered by aftertreatment equipment. Very often, calibration tradeoffs required to meet emissions result in worse fuel economy. For example, to reduce peak combustion temperatures, fuel injection timing can be delayed. This produces lower NOx and worse fuel efficiency. Because the Achates Power engine has lower BMEP than a comparable four-stroke engine, fewer calibration trade-offs are necessary to meet mandated NOx limits, enabling the Achates Power engine to be better optimized for high efficiency.

As a result, not only is the Achates Power engine more efficient, it has a superior BSFC/NOx trade-off curve, as illustrated below. BSFC stays low even at the tailpipe emissions limits of around 0.2-0.2 g/kWh.

Image

A second feature of the Achates Power engine that is favorable for NOx control is the use of a supercharger in the air handling system. To control NOx, the Achates Power engine controller varies how much of the cylinder is scavenged during each cycle. Instead of exhausting the residual gases and then reinserting them back into the cylinder, the Achates Power engine can leave some of the residual there at the end of combustion. The engine controls how much exhaust gas is left in the cylinder by adjusting the supercharger recirculation valve to manage the pressure difference between the intake manifold and the exhaust manifold—the higher the differential, the more residual gases will be exhausted (and fresh air brought in). This technique of internal EGR (or iEGR) is very easily applicable to two-stroke engines—a four-stroke engine, by its very nature, exhausts 100% of the spent gas each cycle on a regular gas exchange cycle. By changing the valve timing of intake and/or exhaust, rebreathing of exhaust gas can be achieved. But, it takes work to expel exhaust gases from the cylinder, and it takes more work to recirculate the exhaust gas and put it back into the cylinder. The Achates Power iEGR implementation avoids this double pumping-loss penalty.

Image

There are limits to how much iEGR can be used—at higher load conditions, using too much iEGR will cause the cylinder and piston temperatures to exceed safe limits. In these conditions, the Achates Power engine combines iEGR with external EGR (you guessed it, eEGR). The eEGR is cooled before it’s put back into the cylinder so it helps contain piston and cylinder temperatures and NOx formation.

But even when the Achates Power engine uses eEGR during high load conditions, it retains an efficiency advantage over conventional engines. Conventional engines use a variable-geometry turbocharger to pump the exhaust gas through a cooler and into the intake manifold. During high load conditions, when the conventional engine needs to pump a lot of exhaust gas, it closes the vanes of the variable geometry turbocharger. This increases the backpressure on the engine that drives the exhaust gas and also degrades turbocharger efficiency, reducing fuel economy. By contrast, the Achates Power engine uses the supercharger to pump the exhaust gas into the intake manifold, avoiding turbocharger efficiency losses. So, at both high eEGR and low eEGR conditions, the Achates Power engine has advantages. This leads to an interesting feature of the Achates Power engine—well positioned and broad islands of peak efficiency.

If you map out the speed (x-axis) and load (y-axis) of an engine, every engine is more efficient in some places and less efficient in others. Most engines are most efficient during high-load operation. One reason is that engine friction increases with load—there is more force acting on bearings, for example—but friction does not increase as quickly as the load does to the friction contribution per unit of load, which decreases as load increases. This is true for the Achates Power engine too. Another reason is that the work a four-stroke engine does to scavenge the cylinder—the work required for the exhaust stroke—is the same regardless of the engine’s load. In essence, it’s over-scavenging during light load conditions because it has no choice. By contrast, the Achates Power engine can reduce its scavenging work during light load conditions.

In general, a four-stroke engine incurs a higher scavenging and friction penalty—both per unit of load—at low loads and, therefore, is most efficient at high loads. The Achates Power engine, by contrast, has friction advantages at high loads and scavenging advantages at low loads so its peak efficiency is around mid-load points.

Image

This is very convenient because most cars and trucks operate at low-to-mid load points much more frequently than they do at high load points. So, not only is the Achates Power engine more efficient than comparable four-stroke engines at the best efficiency points, it is even more efficient over any kind of representative duty cycle. In addition, because the efficiency islands are so broad, simpler transmission designs and less shifting are required.

There is yet another benefit, with regards to NOx, of the Achates Power engine: transient response. If a driver moves from a low-load to a high-load condition—by going up a hill, for example—the amount of exhaust gas that is recirculated must be instantly adjusted. But the turbochargers used in conventional engines have a lag—turbo lag. To reduce the impact of the turbo lag on drivability, EGR rates during transients are usually reduced so that NOx emissions are higher. This requires engine manufacturers to oversize their SCR systems. The Achates Power engine uses a supercharger to drive its exhaust gas. Since the supercharger is directly connected to the engine, it doesn’t incur any lag or require oversized aftertreatment systems. And, it has superior transient response.


END OF QUOTE


I would add that a 2-stroke (opposed piston of not) having not hot spots inside its combustion chamber (like the red-hot exhaust poppet valves of the 4-stroke engines) makes the formation of the NOx more difficult.




In the post #1197 of this thread, the 2-stroke Evinrude E-TEC G2 250 HO

Image

appears substantially superior in fuel efficiency as compared to the 4-stroke Yamaha 250 SHO (there is a video in the Internet showing the superiority of the 2-stroke in the sea: starting with their fuel tanks full, the 2-stroke arrives at the destination island, while a the 4-stroke runs-out of fuel several dozens of miles before the island).

What the vice-president of Achates Power writes in the previous quote, fit to spark ignition 2-strokes, too: while the 4-stroke Yamaha runs over-stressed to make its power, the 2-stroke Evinrude E-TEC runs calmly and more efficiently and less polluting.




Put all the previous together and think of the PatOP engine:

Image

Youtube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ByEgfTTq1I


The rid-of-thrust-load abutment of the piston skirt over the ported cylinder liner allows as low lube specific consumption as the Achates Power Opposed Piston with the two side crankshafts.


The 2-stroke cycle substantially reduces the problem of the NOx emissions of the Diesel (compression ignition) engines, just like the Achates Power claims for their 2-stroke engines.


The single-crankshaft structure of the PatOP eliminates the synchronizing gearing required in the Achates Power Opposed Piston engines (either those having a pair of side crankshafts, or their last models which replicate the Junkers Jumo with the two crankshafts at the ends of the cylinder).

This saves a lot of cost, of weight, of frictional loss, of noise, etc. And the engine becomes more reliable (not existing parts cannot fail).

Think a little more about it: with a single crankshaft the main bearings of the crankshaft run unloaded; in comparison, with two crankshafts, the main bearings are heavily loaded.


The PatOP with its pulling-rod architecture provides some 30% additional time for the preparation of the mixture and for the efficient combustion of it.
A PatOP compression-ignition engine can provide some 30% higher power output (running at the same BMEP) because the fuel droplets feel as being burned inside a conventional running at some 30% lower rpm.


The architecture of the PatOP enables a substantially smaller / shorter / lightweight engine: for a combined piston stroke of 128mm, the height of the first PatOP prototype (the built-in 850cc scavenging pump included) is only 500mm.


Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
109
Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

Post

Regarding oil control issues in horizontal cylinders..
..the Napier Sabre had oblique grooves cut into the bottom inner surface of its sleeve to assist oil return..
See sleeves standing in the lower right, below in this photo:
Image
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

63l8qrrfy6
63l8qrrfy6
368
Joined: 17 Feb 2016, 21:36

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

Post

J.A.W. wrote:
02 May 2017, 02:40
Mudflap wrote:
01 May 2017, 23:56
gruntguru wrote:
01 May 2017, 07:10

No - a cylinder head that leaks no oil. Think about it and see your mistake before critiquing the engineering abilities of others.
Suppose you have a cylinder with bore b and stroke s and a single piston.
You have another engine with 2 cylinders, same bore b and half the stroke.

The 2 cylinder engine has 2 times more rings and implicitly 2 times more ring gap area and 2 times more groove vertical clearance area.

Which engine has a higher oil consumption and higher ring pack friction ?
"I will stop here..."

Well, perhaps you should've, - since there are other considerations you have apparently missed..
..such as an engine which operates every single cylinder, with 2 pistons..
I stopped replying to manolis and added him to the ignore list. I am more than happy to continue any arguments with the rest of you.

You have not read my posts - the engine I am questioning is the engine that you are describing. Now please let me know why you thing such engine will have better oil consumption

63l8qrrfy6
63l8qrrfy6
368
Joined: 17 Feb 2016, 21:36

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

Post

gruntguru wrote:
02 May 2017, 02:52
Mudflap wrote:
01 May 2017, 23:56
gruntguru wrote:
01 May 2017, 07:10

No - a cylinder head that leaks no oil. Think about it and see your mistake before critiquing the engineering abilities of others.
Suppose you have a cylinder with bore b and stroke s and a single piston.
You have another engine with 2 cylinders, same bore b and half the stroke.

The 2 cylinder engine has 2 times more rings and implicitly 2 times more ring gap area and 2 times more groove vertical clearance area.

Which engine has a higher oil consumption and higher ring pack friction ?
Ah - so you want to compare oil consumption of an engine with twice as many pistons and half the displacement per piston? I suppose that would use a bit more oil but it would be higher revving and make more power . . no I don't see the point - best to compare the oil consumption of two engines with the same number of pistons and the same displacement per piston etc.
Ok then !
You now have a single cylinder single piston owith the same bore and same displacement. (Twice the stroke)

How much oil will it consume compared to an opposes piston engine of the same displacement?

manolis
manolis
107
Joined: 18 Mar 2014, 10:00

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

Post

Hello all.

Can somebody from this forum ask, in behalf of me, Mudflap to explain why he did not yet revealed the “certain forum”?

Is it secret, confidential or what?


In case the US1,000$ offered to him are not enough, what about US2,010$?



With US2,010$ an inventor can:

File a US patent application (Filing, Search and Examination fee: US730$ in total, for small entity and “utility patent”, i.e. the expensive one),

Receive (typically after some 3 years) a US patent (for the granting of the US patent an issue fee of US480$ must be paid),

Maintain his US patent in force for seven years after the granting (a US800$ maintenance fee must be paid 3.5 years after the granting and covers the next 3.5 years).


Total cost for the first 10 years (3 years till the granting of the patent, plus 3.5 years till the first maintenance fee to be paid, plus another 3.5 years till the next maintenance fee to be required): US2.010$



If this is still not enough, how much it costs to know the “certain forum” he was talking about?


PS.
I think that the above list of costs may be of value for some readers.

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
109
Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

Post

Mudflap wrote:
02 May 2017, 09:55
J.A.W. wrote:
02 May 2017, 02:40
Mudflap wrote:
01 May 2017, 23:56


Suppose you have a cylinder with bore b and stroke s and a single piston.
You have another engine with 2 cylinders, same bore b and half the stroke.

The 2 cylinder engine has 2 times more rings and implicitly 2 times more ring gap area and 2 times more groove vertical clearance area.

Which engine has a higher oil consumption and higher ring pack friction ?
"I will stop here..."

Well, perhaps you should've, - since there are other considerations you have apparently missed..
..such as an engine which operates every single cylinder, with 2 pistons..
I stopped replying to manolis and added him to the ignore list. I am more than happy to continue any arguments with the rest of you.

You have not read my posts - the engine I am questioning is the engine that you are describing. Now please let me know why you thing such engine will have better oil consumption
Your posts are as clear as mud.. & I am close to putting you on ignore, if 'n' when - I ever put anyone on..

However I do fondly recall this opposed piston 2T diesel from my youth, that AFAIR, had no over-oiling issues,
nor 'carboning up' - providing the correct oil - 'Shell Rotella' - was used..

www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/rootes ... s3/ts3.htm

& they had a real sporty sound too, for an old truck.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfKmkitnqQY
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

Muniix
Muniix
14
Joined: 29 Nov 2016, 13:29
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

Post

manolis wrote:
30 Apr 2017, 08:24
Hello all

What is the difference (regarding the lubrication and the lubricant consumption) when:

a piston (of a ported “cross-head” two-stroke) moves, without thrust loads, over the ports of the cylinder liner,

and when:

a Bishop rotary valve (of a 4-stroke engine) moves inside the cylinder head.

In both cases there are ports / openings (on the cylinder liner, in the first case, on the rotary valve, in the second case) and sealing means passing over the ports.
As you should know from reading the gas and oil sealing patent on the bishop valve, there is no lubricant inside the valve, only the bearings where the oil seals are present.

So no oil present near the seals, apart from combustion products and every engineer is normally concerned with trying to stop carbon buildup, running coolant flow behind and on both sides of the seals keeps them cool.
If the Bishop rotary valve,

does not consume lubricant, the same is the case for the pattakon OPRE:
No it is not because the environment is not the same. Complete misrepresentation of the environments.
If the Bishop cannot help running at high specific lube consumption, then the PatRoVa rotary valve (which runs “dry”) can solve the problem (viable and promising solution).
It has fluid flow issues, very low flow coefficient through the chamber ports as they are too small, and issues trying achieve sonic speed at high engine speeds.
Last edited by Muniix on 02 May 2017, 14:36, edited 1 time in total.

Muniix
Muniix
14
Joined: 29 Nov 2016, 13:29
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

Post

manolis wrote:
30 Apr 2017, 10:40
Hello all.

Here is the “in-cylinder-flow” :

http://www.pattakon.com/tempman/In_Cyli ... mmetry.gif

(if the image is not clear click on: http://www.pattakon.com/tempman/In_Cyli ... mmetry.gif )


The gas flow is shown only in the one half of the cylinder.

The gas flow in the other half of the cylinder is identical (mirrored about the bisecting plane).
It never is the same, how could anybody believe this, stop making up stuff to suppport your opinions.
The velocities of the gas molecules that are on the bisecting plane are parallel to the bisecting plane (zero velocity normal to the bisecting plane).

It is like having an “imaginary curtain” separating / isolating the cylinder in two halves: the one half fills by the gas entering though the one intake valve, the other half fills by the gas entering through the other intake valve.

If this “curtain” was real, it would spoil the flow (boundary layer friction), because in such a case the molecules on the bisecting plane should have zero velocity.

The PatRoVa rotary valve:

http://www.pattakon.com/PatRoVa/PatRoVa_Taper_STE.gif

is perfectly symmetrical.

There are two tangential gas streams (one per chamber port), the one filling the one half of the cylinder, the other filling the other half of the cylinder (the one abutting on the other).

And because they are symmetrical, they do not interfere with each other.

http://www.pattakon.com/PatRoVa/PatRoVa_Tumble.gif

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos
They are never symetrical.

Anyone doing proper 3D CFD knows this is complete rubbish, the turbulence is a complex 3D structure over the whole cylinder. Modelling over only have fails to identify the larger structures.

You are misrepresenting again.

There was once a time for compute cost and capability reasons they only modelled half the cylinder, this is no longer relevant and full cylinder simulations are performed. I assume you knew this and tried to gull those who are not so knowledgable on 3D CFD and it use in in cylinder flows.

Stop Misrepresenting the truth.

Bending whatever you can harvest from the internet to support your incorrect biased opinions.
Last edited by Muniix on 02 May 2017, 14:45, edited 1 time in total.

63l8qrrfy6
63l8qrrfy6
368
Joined: 17 Feb 2016, 21:36

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

Post

J.A.W. wrote:
02 May 2017, 11:22
Mudflap wrote:
02 May 2017, 09:55
J.A.W. wrote:
02 May 2017, 02:40


"I will stop here..."

Well, perhaps you should've, - since there are other considerations you have apparently missed..
..such as an engine which operates every single cylinder, with 2 pistons..
I stopped replying to manolis and added him to the ignore list. I am more than happy to continue any arguments with the rest of you.

You have not read my posts - the engine I am questioning is the engine that you are describing. Now please let me know why you thing such engine will have better oil consumption
Your posts are as clear as mud.. & I am close to putting you on ignore, if 'n' when - I ever put anyone on..

However I do fondly recall this opposed piston 2T diesel from my youth, that AFAIR, had no over-oiling issues,
nor 'carboning up' - providing the correct oil - 'Shell Rotella' - was used..

www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/rootes ... s3/ts3.htm

& they had a real sporty sound too, for an old truck.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfKmkitnqQY
You demanded 'cool technical comments'.

'I had a similar engine when I was little and it was okish' is not a cool technical argument.

Give me something based on physics and logic.

Muniix
Muniix
14
Joined: 29 Nov 2016, 13:29
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

Post

Tommy Cookers wrote:
01 May 2017, 12:57
the Hercules did a worse job than the Merlin at twice the cost
the Sabre cost more than twice the Hercules
$ resources and manpower resources are the same thing - as Stalin saw

why do we think that our car engines cost can be doubled again because doing this looks good under testbed conditions ?
when the diesel air pollution scandal that Europe has inflicted on itself shows that testbed results so falsely represent real world behaviour

whether F1-esque hybrid magic beans or CI magic beans the testbench has little to do with real world conditions
the testbench is all about disguising the fact that we use our 200 hp cars at 20 hp but we keep on buying 200 hp
Tommy Cookers the most wise person here, you do need inteligence to realise that thou.

That is why I have been spending most of my time and effort on optimising mechanical and thermodynamic effeciency at real world speeds and loads, increasing efficiency and the high performance has come along for the ride when I do the high speed simulations.

Now someone is bringing up scavenging efficiency in engines, claiming "a four-stroke engine, by its very nature, exhausts 100% of the spent gas each cycle on a regular gas exchange cycle."

With a claim of 100% efficient, 4 valve production engines typically leave between 40-4% exhaust gas residuals.

By phasing the bishop valve you get some unique behaviours, moving the scavenging +/- tdc, you can control exhaust gas residuals down to under 1% and up to 30% with the Sensata cylnder pressure only sensor providing feedback, thou one can calculate it also with enough compute and researchers are doing just this.
Last edited by Muniix on 02 May 2017, 15:15, edited 1 time in total.

Muniix
Muniix
14
Joined: 29 Nov 2016, 13:29
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

Post

gruntguru wrote:
01 May 2017, 07:19
J.A.W. wrote:
30 Apr 2017, 05:35
Not "impossible", it has been claimed that current F1 engines ( non-emissions constrained, like aero-engines), consume ~5 litres of oil per race, so a g/hp/hr calculation on that basis will allow comparison..
If we assume the engine produces 800 hp.hr of energy over race distance* while consuming 4 kg of oil, you get average oil consumption of 5 g/hp.hr.

(* Based on 800 hp @ 100 kg/hr and 100 kg total fuel consumption per race)
I wouldn't put it past the F1 engineer to 'accidentally' leak oil into the combustion chamber to produce more heat during combustion. I would! even if my personal preference is not to polute, It would be my last way to gain power, total available power over the race distance, that oil is a resource afterall.
Last edited by Muniix on 02 May 2017, 14:49, edited 1 time in total.

Pinger
Pinger
9
Joined: 13 Apr 2017, 17:28

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

Post

Does anyone know (or have a formula for) the relationship between gas velocity through the transfer ports/windows and the prevailing piston speed in a simple crankcase scavenged 2T?
Is it as linear as gas speed through an inlet valve in a 4T - or does the crankcase volume complicate matters? Any ideas?

Muniix
Muniix
14
Joined: 29 Nov 2016, 13:29
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

Post

gruntguru wrote:
01 May 2017, 09:46
manolis wrote:
01 May 2017, 07:32
Then go to http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum/sh ... 58&page=98 and read the last sentence of the last post of that discussion.
Very wise words.
Revetec are still producing engines, employing a new engineer. I spoke with him. Just because the original inventor did not go to the same effort as Bishop to understand theiir engine he was seeing efficiency gains, without the full understanding he was making assumptions still that is far better than BS opinions.

If one were to believe M then the bearings used by bishop on the F1 valve would not run, the forces would overload and deform the rollers.

Lucky then that they accurately measured and modelled the forces involved.

Lucky that they seal the oil into the bearings so no oil leaks into inlet or exhaust. Lucky it has a large unobstructed highly optimised flow into the cylinder and a known flow coefficient proven by air consumption rate, combustion pressure and exhaust heat all balance and meet calculation.

Real engineers doing their job properly.
Last edited by Muniix on 02 May 2017, 14:27, edited 1 time in total.

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
627
Joined: 17 Feb 2012, 16:55

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

Post

compared to SI ......
CI has greater need for long conrods, with their gift of relatively less friction, wear, and vibration
CI combustion, expansion, and rotation does not suffer from long conrods

what's not to like ??
(CI with long conventional rods and no more crankshafts than is conventional)

btw
contrary to Dr Regner's statements .......
CI engines have inherently less 'low-end torque' than SI (because they must under-fuel the air)
and broader islands of efficiency do not reduce shifting (broader islands of output do)

the NOx problem is not because 'real-world' NOx is higher than emissions-certification test NOx
it's because in Europe the (city) NOx limit has been reduced 50% by in-fighting within the public sector
('health'-modeller are covering their incompetence by blaming the regulators/manufacturers and claiming test NOx should apply 'real-world')
city NOx has not increased, and 'evidence' by campaigns actually shows high NOx (VW or other style) does not occur in city driving
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on 02 May 2017, 14:12, edited 1 time in total.