Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
User avatar
PlatinumZealot
559
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

Facts Only wrote:
Facts Only wrote:
PlatinumZealot wrote:
The Mercedes engine is reported to cost 20 million. It is actually cheaper than the Renault. Now can this cheaper cost be realised with machining from a solid Block of Aluminum?
The £20mil is for 8 engines, supply, development, logistics and support for a whole season. The actual BOM cost of each engine is a very small percentage of that,from the numbers I have seen not even 10%, the difference between casting and machining would have next to no impact on the cost especially when you consider tooling and then there is the fact that it's a loss leader anyway.
The big advantage with machined from solid is the lead times, straight from the CAD office to the in house machine shop no supply chain, no tooling, no transport time and 24/7 CNC work.
If it is forged, do you know what degree of forging is used? Just a regular rolling into a billet or hammer forging over a series of stages?
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌✍️🐎🏆🙏

Racing Green in 2028

User avatar
Wazari
623
Joined: 17 Jun 2015, 15:49

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

I think there might be a general misconception of the billet crankcases. At least for Honda, a "billet" is forged at intense pressure at a foundry in the general shape of the crankcase to Honda's specs. Then it is machined. It's not as if a solid rectangular block of high grade aluminum alloy is machined down to an engine block like in the YouTube video. The term billet is probably the most overused and misunderstood term in the auto industry. Making something from a billet doesn't always mean better. It's how that billet was created.
“If Honda does not race, there is no Honda.”

“Success represents the 1% of your work which results from the 99% that is called failure.”

-- Honda Soichiro

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
638
Joined: 17 Feb 2012, 16:55

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

Facts Only wrote: ......Its called a crankcase in F1 engine circles, upper and lower split horizontally on the crank centreline rather than a block and sump is pretty standard. The merc' unit is fully machined from billet. ....
so is this (Honda) unit 2 crankcase 'halves' (upper and lower), and (seperately) cylinder blocks with detachable (or integral ?) heads ?
EDIT
now I remember that eg Pratt & Whitney forged their crankcases starting in 1926
but these were all comprehensible as forgings
each forging being 1 of 2 crankcase 'halves' for each row of cylinders, ie as a pie has 2 halves (a base and top crust)
comprehensible as in achieving the shape and as in broadly achieving the desired orientation of good mechanical properties

btw I also remember Gordon Jennings writing that forging (pistons) limited the materials to those suitable for forging
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on 26 Nov 2015, 11:56, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
559
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

Wazari wrote:I think there might be a general misconception of the billet crankcases. At least for Honda, a "billet" is forged at intense pressure at a foundry in the general shape of the crankcase to Honda's specs. Then it is machined. It's not as if a solid rectangular block of high grade aluminum alloy is machined down to an engine block like in the YouTube video. The term billet is probably the most overused and misunderstood term in the auto industry. Making something from a billet doesn't always mean better. It's how that billet was created.
That is so true.. the word "billet" is very open.

That is interesting that you say the block is forged into the general shape. I think I have a better Idea now. I assume it would be forged in a similar fashion to forging a cup shape (for the crank case) with two large ears for the cylinders?
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌✍️🐎🏆🙏

Racing Green in 2028

User avatar
ringo
230
Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 10:57

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

From what i am hearing, one poster is saying that forged billets are used for example a forged cube shape, and then it is machined like typical machined billet. He did not say the engine block is forged to a near finished shape then machined.

IMO, for such low life span engines castings can be used, but with special casting methods to give good strength. I guess it's up to the team to decide what works for them that gives adequate strenght, after all the engines will only need to be used for about 4 races a piece.
For Sure!!

gruntguru
gruntguru
565
Joined: 21 Feb 2009, 07:43

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

Adequate strength? This is F1 and an engine costs many millions. The production technique selected will be the one that gives the best possible strength within the rules and (huge) budget. The benefit will be minimum weight (so the min' weight allowance can be put elsewhere) and maximum durability and reliability.
je suis charlie

User avatar
Abarth
45
Joined: 25 Feb 2011, 19:47

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

What I wonder is how the cooling jackets are realised in case of forging - machining.
I don't think these are open deck crankcases? Or do they insert cylinder liners, so they can chose another cylinder running surface?

User avatar
FW17
169
Joined: 06 Jan 2010, 10:56

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

In the V10 and V8 days the engine would have been cast as the numbers required were massive.

With open testing and no restrictions on the number of engines used during a race weekend engine per car was well over a 100 for a year. CNC would not have been able to keep up with the requirement.

As the casting technology and infrastructure existed the same would have continued when engine numbers were reduced during the later days of the V8.

Now with V6 numbers severely reduced, we see CNC being used for production.

Facts Only
Facts Only
188
Joined: 03 Jul 2014, 10:25

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Facts Only wrote: ......Its called a crankcase in F1 engine circles, upper and lower split horizontally on the crank centreline rather than a block and sump is pretty standard. The merc' unit is fully machined from billet. ....
so is this (Honda) unit 2 crankcase 'halves' (upper and lower), and (seperately) a cylinder block with detachable (or integral ?) heads ?
I cant speak from first hand knowledge for the Honda and I cant pick out the exact details from the picture but generally you will have an upper crakcase (the closest thing to a 'block') that includes the cylinder bores, a lower crankcase which includes alot of the mounting and mating details for the engine and its anciliaries (so alot more complex than what used to be the 'sump'), the two heads and then usually a large front cover (its pretty obvious to see then in picture of the Merc engine and would have been called the 'timing cover' back in the old days). Also different to most engines is that the Cam covers are now structural units and are much more imprtant than just keeping the oil in, you can see large strenthing ribs running between the mounting points, particularly on the Merc engine.

The Renault appears to have the heaviest front cover and lightest cam covers, the Honda looks to have a light front cover but very pronounced Cam cover ribs and the Merc appears to be somewhere in between. The Honda also appears to have a supplimentary rear cover around the clutch as well.
"A pretentious quote taken out of context to make me look deep" - Some old racing driver

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
638
Joined: 17 Feb 2012, 16:55

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

so the Merc at least is of basically conventional structural form
structurally 1 piece from head joints down to crankshaft centre or lower
however manufactured

iirc BMW F1 tried old-style integral cylinder 'blocks'/heads (for reduced bore spacing) with a seperate crankcase
ie blocks join crankcase above top of crankshaft
afaik the only departure from the (modern) conventional structure ?

Edis
Edis
59
Joined: 31 Jan 2010, 16:58

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

The engine blocks used in F1 are quite conventional with the upper crankcase and cylinders forming a single part. Most F1 blocks are split at the crankshaft axis with the main bearing caps and dry sump being one part, although there have been some long skirted blocks too, like this Cosworth engine.

All previous F1 engine blocks I have seen have been cast, usually in aluminum although a few have been made in cast iron or titanium, and given the complex internal geometries machining them from solid would have been difficult or impossible. All the V8 engines had linerless blocks to maximize the bore while also minimizing the length of the engine, so did most of the later V10 engines and these blocks are not possible to machine from solid unless you make them in pieces and weld them back together (like how the internal oil cooling channel in forged motorsport pistons are made).

It was probably the V10 engines which took the casting technology to its limits since these didn't have a set minimum weight for the engine. With the V8 engine having a minimum weight, heavier castings could be used. Current F1 engines have a mandatory 80 mm bore and a mandatory engine length of 480 mm. Combined with an even higher minimum weight, smaller displacement and higher cylinder pressures this could possibly have made a machined from solid engine block feasible. But I still haven't seen any evidence of machined from solid engine blocks being used in F1, on the contrary the Renault and Ferrari blocks looks cast, probably the Honda too.

Hart is as far as I know the only engine that have had a monobloc in F1 during the modern era.

These days it's also possible to make casting molds using 3D printers.

wuzak
wuzak
467
Joined: 30 Aug 2011, 03:26

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

I saw somewhere that Ferrari are moving, for 2016, from wet liners to fully cast and machined bores (not sure how to describe them).

So if they machine the block from solid now, they won't be able to in 2016.

riff_raff
riff_raff
132
Joined: 24 Dec 2004, 10:18

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

Sounds like there might be a bit of confusion. "Billet" is not a term used in industry. The correct term is "wrought", which is a metal material produced by mechanical working. The raw aluminum alloy material used for a machined engine block would usually be a forging, but it would be a block of material produced from wrought bar using an open forging process. The reason for this is that the size of the aluminum alloy block needed to machine a cylinder block from is not commercially available in wrought bar. So a smaller cross section but longer length of wrought aluminum alloy bar is heated and pounded into the size of block required. This is called an open or hand forging.

Wrought or forged aluminum alloys are preferred over cast aluminum alloys because they have much better fatigue properties.
"Q: How do you make a small fortune in racing?
A: Start with a large one!"

R_Redding
R_Redding
54
Joined: 30 Nov 2011, 14:22

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

riff_raff wrote:Sounds like there might be a bit of confusion. "Billet" is not a term used in industry. .
I think your quite wrong about "billet" not being an industrial term , even if its primary role now is to sell shiny objects.


Form Wiki

"Semi-finished casting products are intermediate castings produced in a foundry that need further processing before being a finished good. There are four types: ingots, blooms, billets, and slabs."




Very close to me is Scunthorpe steelworks.. They shut their bloom and billet mill down a few years ago

http://www.scunthorpetelegraph.co.uk/St ... story.html


And from Sheffield Forgemasters quality and accreditations page...

Germanischer Lloyd
Approval for manufacture of ingot, billet and bar.

https://www.sheffieldforgemasters.com/s ... editations


Rob

Vortex37
Vortex37
20
Joined: 18 Mar 2012, 20:53

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

wuzak wrote:I saw somewhere that Ferrari are moving, for 2016, from wet liners to fully cast and machined bores (not sure how to describe them).

So if they machine the block from solid now, they won't be able to in 2016.
Just to add to your post. A principle reason for the change, is greater structural integrity, and lighter weight. In addition, more advanced friction reducing coating techniques can be used, which also give better heat transfer. Coupling this with hybrid nano material lubricants, gives very low friction numbers.

Mirror bore coating

Example DLC(Diamond like coating)