McLaren dump Mercedes?

[FW17]

Ferrari could be a short term alternative, and while this may appear far fetched, there has been a bit of a love in between the 2 teams, almost in unison against Red Bull.

Alonso will veto that one

[FoxHound]

They are always going to be at a serious disadvantage in that relationship

Is this pure speculation or are there some facts to back this up?
I ask purely because for the last 2-3 years, McLaren seem to have no disadvantage to speak of.

Engine maps? Sorted.
EBD exhaust? Collaboration with Mercedes in Brixworth provided quite a substantial jump in performance from their early iteration, and the works team proper seemed to have difficulties.
Coanda exhaust? Naturally the majority of this is aerodynamic, but it would still have required some input from Mercedes in Brixworth. Again, the works team arent anywhere near this.

[munudeges]

When you are competing against a team that actually employs Mercedes engine people and you are not the focus of their support then you are always going to be further down the queue. That will make a huge difference in 2014 because Mercedes will basically have the engine designed for their car.

[marcush.]

Mclaren will only be on board as long as necessary for them no longer than that.
Does Daimler even feel Mclaren as a competitor in the outer world -a car manufacturer? Probably not .Mclaren selling their cars with Mclaren engines but campaigning their formula1 cars with Mercedes power is a fair bit on the dodgy side and will certainly need corrective measures.
Question is :would a switch to Honda be any better pr wise -no.I think Mclaren just has to do their own powertrain project at least medium term for creditability.

[FoxHound]

If McLaren make their own engine, along with all the costs involved.... They would be treading a fine line.

I just read on racecarengineering.com that "Honda insiders" confirm there is a 1.6 litre v6 turbo knocking about.
So Honda do indeed have one eye on F1.

@mun, that may be the case in 2014, but cant say they have been treated unfavourably in the last 3 years.

[WhiteBlue]

I just read on racecarengineering.com that "Honda insiders" confirm there is a 1.6 litre v6 turbo knocking about.

If you add that AMuS reported a potential F1 project at Porsche's new Weissach motor sport facility we could be looking at a completely new situation.
I always suspected that the P.U.R.E. activity was a a stealth project for Red Bull's own engine. That has obviously been shelved. What else but the Porsche project would be in place to replace it?
Lotus or Williams could be in line to take over the Renault works project and if racecarengineering.com is believable McLaren would switch to Honda in 2014 or 2015 depending how things will develop.
It all hinges on a suitable agreement of resource restrictions which seems to be progressing nicely now. As we know Todt has promised he would also talk to Hyundai and Kia. So we could be heading for some interesting power train competition in the future.

[wunderkind]

If the reports are true, I say Mercedes must be glad McLaren is initiating the breakup. It would otherwise cost Mercedes a few million to terminate the relationship early.

I just cannot see McLaren winning the championship in the next two to four years.

Ron Dennis used to say Ferrari was on their fifth year of their three year plan to win the championship. I now wonder if McLaren is going down the same path.

As for the Honda engine, what happens if Bernie and LdM get their way and keep the V8s for a few more years? Honda doesn't have a current spec V8 lying around somewhere do they? If you think along these lines, I doubt McLaren is initiating a breakup and Honda will probably not enter F1 until the engine formula is set in stone.

[marcush.]

Porsche (read VW) as a RedBull supplier ? Has Porsche the engine designer needed and do they have the knowledge available in Weissach to do a competitive F1 powertrain'?
The most advanced engine of the last years surely was the DI spyderRS engine...the angry engine as it was called in the US
Was this really a top of the line product ? they competed with Judd ,HPD(Acura) back then and Audi ,of course.Audi has only Diesel expertise even if they have run v6 layouts in Sportscars for a good 2 years now...

I´m not convinced.

[dren]

These new turbo engines don't sound as high-tech in many ways as the older V10 screamers. The rev limit is reduced 15k, but likely 12k useable(from the Renault article in Racecar Engineering). This is where high end road cars are now. Most new road car engines use DI, and many use turbos (at lower pressure though). The block will be aluminum, nothing fancy. I see the big gains in the mechanical-electrical marriage. That area is pretty exciting.

On another site, a Honda insider is somewhat optimistic on Honda jumping back into F1 with Mclaren.

[Raptor22]

Porsche (read VW) as a RedBull supplier ? Has Porsche the engine designer needed and do they have the knowledge available in Weissach to do a competitive F1 powertrain'?
The most advanced engine of the last years surely was the DI spyderRS engine...the angry engine as it was called in the US
Was this really a top of the line product ? they competed with Judd ,HPD(Acura) back then and Audi ,of course.Audi has only Diesel expertise even if they have run v6 layouts in Sportscars for a good 2 years now...

I´m not convinced.

If you're talking competition engines you're very much mistaken. VW, specifically Audi is responsible for the range of DI petrol engines, also used at Le Mans earlier this century. Their DI engine technology is acknowledged as top of the pile. The expertise is within the group. Its just a matter of how serious they are and what budget the y allocate to the devleopment of an F1 powertrain. VAG has continually said they do not wish to participate in a cash spend war so it clear that they don't see much marketing value in F1, whereas Renault and Mercedes do.

The engine configuration has little bearing on the expertise available

[wunderkind]

VAG has continually said they do not wish to participate in a cash spend war so it clear that they don't see much marketing value in F1, whereas Renault and Mercedes do.

mmmmmmmmm, you are not correct.

What VW means is that, they'd want to know for certain that the money spent will be commensurate to the success. That is, if they outspend everyone body, they want to know for sure that they will win the championship. This is the way the VW executives think and they will only enter F1 on that basis. They will outspend Mercedes, Ferrari, and Renault to win if they have to.

Right now, F1 is a bit of a lottery with the Pirelli tyre situation. No amount of money can buy certainty in winning the championship.

[wunderkind]

If you're talking competition engines you're very much mistaken. VW, specifically Audi is responsible for the range of DI petrol engines, also used at Le Mans earlier this century. Their DI engine technology is acknowledged as top of the pile. The expertise is within the group. Its just a matter of how serious they are and what budget the y allocate to the devleopment of an F1 powertrain.

The engine configuration has little bearing on the expertise available

Again, I have to disagree. I once read an interview of a top F1 engine designer and he said the efficiency of the current engines are pretty close to maximum given the existing set of regulations, direct injection or not. To achieve any further sizable gains will require something quite radical like what Mercedes, Ilmor, (sorry, Seijakessen) was toying with in the early 2000's before the Renault engine guys got wind of the rotary valve system Mercedes (sorry again, Seijakessen) was running on the test-bench and went to Max Mosley. The rest was history.

Another sign of how efficient current engines are, is the size of the sidepod openings and radiatiors housed within them. They have only been getting slimmer and narrower through the years. If the 'bang' is bigger than before, then the radiators must increase in size commensurately.

The engine performance gains are all coming from better lubrication, cooling, and pushing the materials much harder than before. These are all stuffs that cannot be attained straight away for any new entrant even one as formidable as VW-Audi-Porsche. Even with the minimum engine weight regulation, there are still much scope to lighten all the reciprocating mass within the engine. The designers will just make the bottom part of the engine block heavier to meet the minimum weight requirement.

[FW17]

The engine performance gains are all coming from better lubrication, cooling, and pushing the materials much harder than before. These are all stuffs that cannot be attained straight away for any new entrant even one as formidable as VW-Audi-Porsche. Even with the minimum engine weight regulation, there are still much scope to lighten all the reciprocating mass within the engine. The designers will just make the bottom part of the engine block heavier to meet the minimum weight requirement.

Not necessarily. BMW in 2000 - 2001 was an example of how a manufacturer can take F1 by storm by there in house research and development. BMW were even making the castings for the Williams gearbox by 2002.

What VW means is that, they'd want to know for certain that the money spent will be commensurate to the success. That is, if they outspend everyone body, they want to know for sure that they will win the championship. This is the way the VW executives think and they will only enter F1 on that basis. They will outspend Mercedes, Ferrari, and Renault to win if they have to.

F1 is as chaise as engine dependent that success cannot be guaranteed. VAG can enter as a engine builder or manufacturer, either way success is not guaranteed (unless they could have bought Ferrari in 2000)

[wunderkind]

WilliamsF1,

BMW had two full years to prepare for their debut with Team Williams in 2000 and they had an engine in the back of a Williams car for much of 1999 testing on various circuits in Europe. You cannot do the same thing now with limited testing during the year.

Williams-BMW did do okay in 2000 and scored some wins in 2001. But after that, performance dropped sharply.

It's like any new entrant into the sport. They have a long time to prepare for their debut season, but the proof of the pudding is in the second and third season when they really have to get their act together developing for the current season and simultaneously prepare for the car/engine of the next season.

[WhiteBlue]

If the reports are true, I say Mercedes must be glad McLaren is initiating the breakup. It would otherwise cost Mercedes a few million to terminate the relationship early.

I just cannot see McLaren winning the championship in the next two to four years.

Ron Dennis used to say Ferrari was on their fifth year of their three year plan to win the championship. I now wonder if McLaren is going down the same path.

As for the Honda engine, what happens if Bernie and LdM get their way and keep the V8s for a few more years? Honda doesn't have a current spec V8 lying around somewhere do they? If you think along these lines, I doubt McLaren is initiating a breakup and Honda will probably not enter F1 until the engine formula is set in stone.

I would be surprised if an early termination would cost Merc any money. All reports agree that McLaren are paying customer prices. Both parties probably have options. But paying them a penalty is an unlikely one in my view.

If the report from the FiA meeting is correct the issue of a further delay should be off the table.