That much is obvious. I can't see why you wouldn't implement it, it can't see slowing down purely from drag will be faster overall then slowing down purely from harvesting. On the onboards you can hear the whine of the electric motors when they lift off, but that noise is far more intense when they start braking (which i can't really explain).machin wrote:One thing is for certain; lifting and coasting definitely includes slowing down by aero dag... That's simple laws of physics... Whether there is also some ERS harvesting as well is questionable... Your comment in brackets is the reason I think it would be linked only to use of the brake pedal (in the case of KERS).Cold Fussion wrote:lift and coast is probably just slowing down via the electric motors.
.... (they may not want harvesting lifting off in a corner for example).
Could you elaborate please? I thought EoT is ICE only, so are you referring to their low fuel consumption?ian_s wrote:I wonder how badly Porsche will be hit when they recalculate the equivalence formula now, I believe that is done after the 24hrs?
i've just spent a while reading up on how they do the EoT, and i had it wrong. i thought that each manufacturer had a different fuel flow rate, but really its just petrol vs diesel.joseff wrote:Could you elaborate please? I thought EoT is ICE only, so are you referring to their low fuel consumption?ian_s wrote:I wonder how badly Porsche will be hit when they recalculate the equivalence formula now, I believe that is done after the 24hrs?
What if their mileage is due to a superior hybrid system? The FIA is not likely to handicap the 8MJ class, and make 4MJ more attractive.
It's more likely I think that they'll alter the fuel tank capacity of the petrol class, or they'll re-evaluate the technology factor for the 2016 regulations. From the technical and sporting regulations, it doesn't look like the EoT can be changed mid season (other than adjusting the global performance level):joseff wrote:Could you elaborate please? I thought EoT is ICE only, so are you referring to their low fuel consumption?ian_s wrote:I wonder how badly Porsche will be hit when they recalculate the equivalence formula now, I believe that is done after the 24hrs?
What if their mileage is due to a superior hybrid system? The FIA is not likely to handicap the 8MJ class, and make 4MJ more attractive.
Actually I've just looked at the energy store regulations and you're only allowed two ERSA units. The 919 and R18 can only harvest from the front brakes , which would limit their ability to harvest during lift and coast as it would possibly make the rear end unstable (though only 200 kW (in the case of the R18) of braking power will probably limit the braking instability so they may still do it). Toyota have front and rear harvesting so I expect they will be harvesting under lift and coast.Cold Fussion wrote:That much is obvious. I can't see why you wouldn't implement it, it can't see slowing down purely from drag will be faster overall then slowing down purely from harvesting. On the onboards you can hear the whine of the electric motors when they lift off, but that noise is far more intense when they start braking (which i can't really explain).machin wrote:
One thing is for certain; lifting and coasting definitely includes slowing down by aero dag... That's simple laws of physics... Whether there is also some ERS harvesting as well is questionable... Your comment in brackets is the reason I think it would be linked only to use of the brake pedal (in the case of KERS).
Anthony Davidson, Toyota LMP1 Driver wrote:With the hybrid powertrain you really notice the difference at two points: under braking and on acceleration out of a corner. Because we harvest energy under braking, the driver gets a different sensation as soon as you step on the brake and this can take a little while to get used to
Toyota website wrote:Our petrol hybrid powertrain recovers energy under braking
Evo Magazine speaking about the Audi LMP1 wrote:This power will be harvested under braking
Porsche website talking about the 919 wrote: a generator at the front axle converts kinetic energy into electricity during braking phases
Like a hybrid street car! There is mild harvesting any time the car is coasting and it intensifies (to a certain point) when you get on the brakes.Cold Fussion wrote:On the onboards you can hear the whine of the electric motors when they lift off, but that noise is far more intense when they start braking (which i can't really explain).
While braking in a straight line on the Mulsanne straight I would agree with the lift and coast harvesting, but it isn't something I would want default on; I wouldn't want such an extreme balance when lifting off while turning.BanMeToo wrote: Also, though it doesn't make much sense for me to fly in the face of the references you found machin, could an LMP1 car not be set up with a little bit of KERS drag while off throttle, just like a hyrbid car? It would not mess the driver up if it's always there. And when are they really off throttle in a race, anyway? Right before they get on the brakes? Why not grab a sliver of energy while its there.
Actually duruing the race on the long straights to the chicanes it looked as if they first started recovering shortly before hitting the Brakes. Also I doubt they are able to recover 8MJ just while braking. When we assume a 400kW electric Motor (The Porsche is said to have max ~1200HP of which 500 something would be the ICE) it would take 20s to revover 8MJ. I don't think they spend 20s on the brakes in one lap. decellerating from 300km/h to 100 at 4g will take less than 1,5s. So they will have to do some coasting or brake less firecely tha would be possible to recover the full 8MJ.machin wrote: I'm not convinced by that argument... a KERS system only harvests when the car is braking, and a HERS recovers best when the engine is at full throttle... neither really conducive to "coasting to recover energy"... I think they were just partially coasting/not using full throttle to save a bit of fuel, knowing they could still run at close to Audi pace, but achieve an extra lap per stint AND a 3-4 second shorter fuel stop... reducing the time at full throttle would probably help a little with the reliability too....
I don't buy any of this, sorry. Contradicts logic on one front too many. Also goes directly against what alonso said about battery not being recharged sufficiently if he lifts and coasts.henra wrote:Actually duruing the race on the long straights to the chicanes it looked as if they first started recovering shortly before hitting the Brakes. Also I doubt they are able to recover 8MJ just while braking. When we assume a 400kW electric Motor (The Porsche is said to have max ~1200HP of which 500 something would be the ICE) it would take 20s to revover 8MJ. I don't think they spend 20s on the brakes in one lap. decellerating from 300km/h to 100 at 4g will take less than 1,5s. So they will have to do some coasting or brake less firecely tha would be possible to recover the full 8MJ.machin wrote: I'm not convinced by that argument... a KERS system only harvests when the car is braking, and a HERS recovers best when the engine is at full throttle... neither really conducive to "coasting to recover energy"... I think they were just partially coasting/not using full throttle to save a bit of fuel, knowing they could still run at close to Audi pace, but achieve an extra lap per stint AND a 3-4 second shorter fuel stop... reducing the time at full throttle would probably help a little with the reliability too....
If the system is set up so that it recovers some energy (i.e. slows or "brakes" the car) with zero brake pedal effort it would contravene that rule in my opinion since you would be moving the brake response away from the origin on a graph of brake pedal effort vs actually braking effort, and therefore not have a strict mathematical "direct" relationship between the two....LMP1 Regulations wrote:In particular this [KERS] system must: Ensure a level of braking effort directly linked to the brake pedal effort.
Hmm, would it really?machin wrote: If the system is set up so that it recovers some energy (i.e. slows or "brakes" the car) with zero brake pedal effort it would contravene that rule in my opinion since you would be moving the brake response away from the origin on a graph of brake pedal effort vs actually braking effort, and therefore not have a strict mathematical "direct" relationship between the two....