). If it wasn't for Massa, Ferrari wouldn't have anything going for them.It's a very sad day when an F1 fan turns their back on Ferrari.
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). If it wasn't for Massa, Ferrari wouldn't have anything going for them.
Make that at least 3, mate. My brother and I feel exactly the same and we are both huge fans of Ferrari.andrew wrote:It's a very sad day when an F1 fan turns their back on Ferrari.
The British media made him a scapegoat in what way? The man was willing to profit from stolen material and only back tracks when when the team won't allow his World Champion status to stifle his team mates achievements...what do we say here in the US?..a snitch, a rat? I had an indeference towards him when he went to renault. Over time, I have always subconsciously ananlyzed Alonso and Hamilton's charactors and have wondered why I still like Hamilton. Hamilton comes accross as arrogant yet I cant help but think he doesn't wish misfortune for those he doesn't get along with. Alonso, however, is a "win at all cost", "bend over so I can rape u", "I have already proven myself so I should get that on a silver platter", bitter kind of guy.JohnsonsEvilTwin wrote:Mx
It the way that it was done. I respect Alonso as a great driver and I dont buy all this "character" bull.
They couldve made it look a lot cleaner than they did. Massa made his point very clear.
Also,all this anti Alonso sentiment...had anyone actually cared to see that Alonso was made an almost sole scapegoat for Mclaren's spying by the British media. I mean its not like Mclaren(being british) had anything to do with it? Their character assaination was complete and ruthless.
Yes he gave them ammunition, but they went too far.
In this case Alonso again is being villified, when the reality is that Ferrari are the main culprits. I think Alonso felt pretty sheepish in the end, and Massa should have been allowed to at least fight for his lead.
Bottom line here is, blame Ferrari, not Alonso.
Your last sentence fails to hide the logical flaw in your argument.Mandrake wrote:If he had continued trying to pass Massa it could've led to a RB Turkey incident or car damage in terms of running hot or whatever. Massa being in front only resulted from a lucky start in Vettel's dead area of the mirror.....
Ohh and btw. I'm more a Massa than Alonso fan!
Very well put =D> =D>rifrafs2kees wrote:The British media made him a scapegoat in what way? The man was willing to profit from stolen material and only back tracks when when the team won't allow his World Champion status to stifle his team mates achievements...what do we say here in the US?..a snitch, a rat? I had an indeference towards him when he went to renault. Over time, I have always subconsciously ananlyzed Alonso and Hamilton's charactors and have wondered why I still like Hamilton. Hamilton comes accross as arrogant yet I cant help but think he doesn't wish misfortune for those he doesn't get along with. Alonso, however, is a "win at all cost", "bend over so I can rape u", "I have already proven myself so I should get that on a silver platter", bitter kind of guy.JohnsonsEvilTwin wrote:Mx
It the way that it was done. I respect Alonso as a great driver and I dont buy all this "character" bull.
They couldve made it look a lot cleaner than they did. Massa made his point very clear.
Also,all this anti Alonso sentiment...had anyone actually cared to see that Alonso was made an almost sole scapegoat for Mclaren's spying by the British media. I mean its not like Mclaren(being british) had anything to do with it? Their character assaination was complete and ruthless.
Yes he gave them ammunition, but they went too far.
In this case Alonso again is being villified, when the reality is that Ferrari are the main culprits. I think Alonso felt pretty sheepish in the end, and Massa should have been allowed to at least fight for his lead.
Bottom line here is, blame Ferrari, not Alonso.
I believe that if Alonso does not win the championship this year or next, Ferrari will grow tired of his whinging and send him on his way a la raikonnen style for Kubica. They'll never have Kubica and him at the same time.
I don't see the difficulty in understanding your arguments, either.mx_tifosi wrote:Of course they have that right. Teams would prefer to win both championships instead of just the CC. In this case the closest to the title is Alonso, and they needed Massa to cede a few points to him in order to make it more possible. I don't see the difficulty in understanding this, or even the Ham-Kov version from years past. What was the point in Kovalainen finishing higher and holding back some points from Hamilton when we've come to find out that in recent years the title has been won by a difference of a point or two?
If a driver is faster and has a higher probability of winning the DC then the team has all the right to give him some advantages, especially when the teammate has not been doing so good. In Germany Massa was locking up and almost losing control on a consistent basis, were it not for the difficulty in overtaking Alonso would have overtaken him soon enough, so the team made the reasonable choice to swap the positions in a more controlled fashion.
Be in no doubt that Alonso was central to the spying scandal at McLaren. Mike Coughlan is the person who received the data and it was then used by de la Rosa and Alonso - the only reason that the FIA were able to prove that others in McLaren knew about the data was because of emails and text messages between the two. My understanding is that he lied during the initial internal investigations denying any knowledge, something that McLaren then reported back to the FIA, and then threatened to tell the FIA the truth in his famous row with Ron. Before that it was known that Coughlan had the data but it was claimed, after that internal investigation, that he acted alone and no one else knew about the data. So Alonso was responsible for the initial lie to the FIA and the subsequent outing of it, and it was that lie that cost McLaren $100m.JohnsonsEvilTwin wrote:Mx
It the way that it was done. I respect Alonso as a great driver and I dont buy all this "character" bull.
They couldve made it look a lot cleaner than they did. Massa made his point very clear.
Also,all this anti Alonso sentiment...had anyone actually cared to see that Alonso was made an almost sole scapegoat for Mclaren's spying by the British media. I mean its not like Mclaren(being british) had anything to do with it? Their character assaination was complete and ruthless.
Yes he gave them ammunition, but they went too far.
In this case Alonso again is being villified, when the reality is that Ferrari are the main culprits. I think Alonso felt pretty sheepish in the end, and Massa should have been allowed to at least fight for his lead.
Bottom line here is, blame Ferrari, not Alonso.
andrew wrote:I have never liked Alonso or even rated him. I used to support Ferrri, but after they lost Massa the championship in 2008 they went down a few notches, then they ditched Raikonnen and they went down a few more notches, then they signed Alonso and went down a huge amount of notches, now this?! Well they have run out of notches and have gone through the floor (the neighbours ain't too happy!
It's a very sad day when an F1 fan turns their back on Ferrari.
+1jwielage wrote:By its very definition a team is a group of players that coordinate to achieve the result most beneficial for the sum of the parts, not any single individual. When viewed in this cold and calculated manner, Ferrari's actions seem reasonable. What adds a shade of grey to this argument is the rule that "bans" team orders even though we all know they happen with regularity.
Let’s face it this is not an argument about team orders, or the German GP. This is an argument about a man who has (justifiably or not) become a polarizing figure in F1. If you like Alonso you will arrange the facts in a configuration that justifies Sunday’s actions. On the other hand if you dislike FA you then you will find a way to condemn him.
...hahaa..you're killing me with that picagungn51 wrote:andrew wrote:I have never liked Alonso or even rated him. I used to support Ferrri, but after they lost Massa the championship in 2008 they went down a few notches, then they ditched Raikonnen and they went down a few more notches, then they signed Alonso and went down a huge amount of notches, now this?! Well they have run out of notches and have gone through the floor (the neighbours ain't too happy!
It's a very sad day when an F1 fan turns their back on Ferrari.
Myurr, the exact circumstances and the actual mechanics of the situation are very murky.myurr wrote: Be in no doubt that Alonso was central to the spying scandal at McLaren. Mike Coughlan is the person who received the data and it was then used by de la Rosa and Alonso - the only reason that the FIA were able to prove that others in McLaren knew about the data was because of emails and text messages between the two. My understanding is that he lied during the initial internal investigations denying any knowledge, something that McLaren then reported back to the FIA, and then threatened to tell the FIA the truth in his famous row with Ron. Before that it was known that Coughlan had the data but it was claimed, after that internal investigation, that he acted alone and no one else knew about the data. So Alonso was responsible for the initial lie to the FIA and the subsequent outing of it, and it was that lie that cost McLaren $100m.
In this case Alonso is being vilified because yet again he benefits from a dodgy situation yet denies all knowledge. We all know that he whinges and whines to his team over the radio, that he thinks it's ridiculous that his team mate is allowed to beat him on track, that after botching his overtake he waved his hand at Massa as if it was his fault and he should have just jumped out the way, that he will have been expecting the team to give him number one status and applying pressure to make it happen. He does these things, we all know it, and most of us really don't like it. Contrary to that a lot of people do like Massa, myself included (for the most part), and were happy for him to finally be back and performing like he used to before his crash. That was taken away from Massa and the fans in a very callous way, and as we all hit out at Red Bull disadvantaging Webber to benefit Vettel, we're all hitting out at Ferrari for their disadvantaging of one driver to the benefit of the other.
The fans have never liked it, and I doubt they ever will.
I agree that Coughlan and de la Rosa were every bit as involved in this as Alonso and that they should shoulder a large part of the blame. I think that the reasons for Alonso taking more of the blame are that he is the more publicly visibile, was the one who most directly benefitted, and has been caught in more controversy in the past (and since!). Not terribly fair but cest la vis.JohnsonsEvilTwin wrote:Myurr, the exact circumstances and the actual mechanics of the situation are very murky.
What we do know is the 2 main protaganists were Stepney and Coughlin. Secondly, Stepney was disillusioned at Ferrari being overlooked for promotion.
Coughlin was only too happy to receive Ferrari data.
Thirdly He shared it with the teams test driver, and its lead driver Alonso. Hamilton was far too inexperienced to be dictating set up to the team at this stage, hence why his name is absent.
Fourth, Do you seriously think Lewis knew nothing of this at all? Coughlin, Ryan, Alonso, Dennis and De La Rosa but not Hamilton?
Fifth, Do you think Dennis had no part in asking Alonso to lie that he had no part of this? Mclaren drivers are perhaps the most briefed drivers in the sport and to suggest that a driver is acting unilaterlally is pretty far fetched if you dont mind me saying.
Alonso is not innocent, but neither is he the Devil everyone seems to want to paint him. Schumacher did this sort of thing for years, Hakkinen too! Both greats, both accomplished personalities.
Finally, why is it that Alonso got slammed for "lieing" but De La Rosa got off with pretty much zero publiciity. Many reasons for that, but if you thimnk the British media didnt conduct a witch hunt on Alonso, then you are mistaken I'm afraid.
And the issue wasnt contained to just britain. Sadly for Alonso, FOX News (rupert Murdoch owned)stateside reported the exact trash.
Once again, I would like to say he is not innocent. But he bore the brunt of it unfairly.