Vettel just shy of Grand Slam, Hamilton beats penalty record

[beelsebob]

Maybe Vettel "feared" that Hamilton would pull a Hamilton and drive into him. Then fear would indeed be the right word

Amazing how quickly that turns around – not that long ago one would have said Vettel was the one to "pull a Hamilton"

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Put Alonso, Hamilton, Rosberg, Button or even ol Schumacher in the Red Bull and perhaps Vettel would be "doing a Hamilton" more often than not.

Not taking anything away from Webber, but there is no pressure on Vettel. With Hamilton there is the very real threat of Button, and he is pushing beyond the boundaries.
When faced with this kind of heat Im certain Vettel wouldnt come out unscathed.

[Traction]

Put Alonso, Hamilton, Rosberg, Button or even ol Schumacher in the Red Bull and perhaps Vettel would be "doing a Hamilton" more often than not.

Not taking anything away from Webber, but there is no pressure on Vettel. With Hamilton there is the very real threat of Button, and he is pushing beyond the boundaries.
When faced with this kind of heat Im certain Vettel wouldnt come out unscathed.

Vettel has come a long way from what he was when he started, without a doubt he would dominate any driver that teamed up with him at RB...

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Vettel has come a long way from what he was when he started,

Absolutely, he's a de facto double world champ. Very impressive maturity too.

without a doubt he would dominate any driver that teamed up with him at RB...

I disagree.
Hamilton and Alonso would have him licked in my opinion. Thing is, Vettel can really only be compared to Webber. And Webber is NOT a World champion driver. That Vettel is winning uncontested in a Newey car with Webber as a team mate should really speak volumes.

When he was under pressure last year he was prone to some hefty mistakes. Hamilton is also prone to these errors, but that's more to do with his over-driving the car to keep up with the Bulls.

We will probably not see this trio paired up, so its going to be speculative and based on personal opinion.

How much of Vettels success is due to Red Bull giving him full run of the team and its resources? Im pretty certain that had roles been reversed in either Hamilton or Alonso's case, they would have made Webber look just as ordinary if not more so.

My ideal scenario is to see all the cars concerned within 0.2 seconds of each other with similar tyre characteristics. Its in this kind of window where we will see what Vettel is made of, because he cannot run and hide in the mighty Red Bull and will have to actually fight to win races, like Hamilton and Alonso.

[Richard]

JET - thanks for the common sense!

[munudeges]

When faced with this kind of heat Im certain Vettel wouldnt come out unscathed.

Neither do I and I still think his attempted pass and crash into Button at Spa was a warning sign, but then again that's not his problem. We will see more of what Vettel is made of as he progresses over the next few years.

[ringo]

Vettel has come a long way from what he was when he started,

Absolutely, he's a de facto double world champ. Very impressive maturity too.

without a doubt he would dominate any driver that teamed up with him at RB...

I disagree.
Hamilton and Alonso would have him licked in my opinion. Thing is, Vettel can really only be compared to Webber. And Webber is NOT a World champion driver. That Vettel is winning uncontested in a Newey car with Webber as a team mate should really speak volumes.

When he was under pressure last year he was prone to some hefty mistakes. Hamilton is also prone to these errors, but that's more to do with his over-driving the car to keep up with the Bulls.

We will probably not see this trio paired up, so its going to be speculative and based on personal opinion.

How much of Vettels success is due to Red Bull giving him full run of the team and its resources? Im pretty certain that had roles been reversed in either Hamilton or Alonso's case, they would have made Webber look just as ordinary if not more so.

My ideal scenario is to see all the cars concerned within 0.2 seconds of each other with similar tyre characteristics. Its in this kind of window where we will see what Vettel is made of, because he cannot run and hide in the mighty Red Bull and will have to actually fight to win races, like Hamilton and Alonso.

Hungary in the opening laps is a good example of what you would see with the cars almost equal. Vettel under pressure then cracks.
We need more rain races like that.
In fact we need a race that starts dry and ends wet. Haven't had that in a long while.

Currently i think all drivers are almost equal in terms of skill. So DRS would spoil a good show down.
Hopefully we get a Shu vs Hamilton this season with Vettel involved. Even if it has to be with his teammate webber.

Has vettel broken the front row start record or podium finish record though?
(as a % of season races)

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

JET - thanks for the common sense!

A pleasure

Neither do I and I still think his attempted pass and crash into Button at Spa was a warning sign, but then again that's not his problem. We will see more of what Vettel is made of as he progresses over the next few years.

The crazy thing about Vettel is his age, 24. There are signs that he requires more craft when racing, as the example you mentioned outlines. But he certainly has the time to develop that craft.

Hungary in the opening laps is a good example of what you would see with the cars almost equal. Vettel under pressure then cracks.
We need more rain races like that.
In fact we need a race that starts dry and ends wet. Haven't had that in a long while.

Then Button would beat everyone ringo!

[ringo]

I don't agree with this myth of Button being a better rain driver than everyone else.

He's won when the track dries, with opportune pit stops and attrition.

He's not won a race where it starts dry and gets wet. Or is completely wet Korea 2010.
As wet driving isn't his strength. His strength is chaos and how to make sense of it.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

I don't agree with this myth of Button being a better rain driver than everyone else.

He's won when the track dries, with opportune pit stops and attrition.

He's not won a race where it starts dry and gets wet. Or is completely wet Korea 2010.
As wet driving isn't his strength. His strength is chaos and how to make sense of it.

Well hes made a knack of winning in changeable conditions. Given the nature of these things, its rather more than just pure opportunism.
If his strength is how he makes sense of the chaos while driving, surely we can credit him as being better than others in these situations, no?

[raymondu999]

He's not won a race where it starts dry and gets wet.

No one has; recently. To memory only Felipe has in the recent past; 2008 Brazil

[mnmracer]

Hungary in the opening laps is a good example of what you would see with the cars almost equal. Vettel under pressure then cracks.

So what do races like Barcelona and Monaco show then? A little convenient fact-shopping there. Vettel cracks no more or less under pressure than Schumacher, Alonso or Hamilton.

Has vettel broken the front row start record or podium finish record though? (as a % of season races)

Not yet for overall, will be just short for percentage.
Hunt for the records in the remaining races

[raymondu999]

Eh? Vettel could win most percentage of front row, no? He only was off it once this year, right?

[Richard]

Raymond, have a look at mnmrcaer's excellent thread:

Highest percentage of pole positions in a season
Current record: Nigel Mansell, 14 out of 16 poles in 1992, 88%
Vettel: even if he qualifies on pole in the next 5 races, 16 out of 19 poles is 82.2%

Highest percentage of team pole positions in a season
Current record: McLaren (1988, 1989) and Williams (1992, 1993) with 15 out of 16 pole positions in one season, or 93.75%.
Red Bull: 14 poles, 18 poles needed for 94.7% possible this year; 100% poles also possible

Webber has 3 poles this season ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Formu ... rands_Prix

[raymondu999]

Yes, and I was talking of front row starts in a season. I'm well aware of Nigel's 1992 and McLaren's 88 pole records...