2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

[etusch]

I really do think McLaren have shot themselves in the foot here, they've gone through 3 years of pain to develop with the Honda and they're now dumping it for an engine that's just as unreliable and handing Honda and all that work over to one of their championship contenders in the form of Red Bull, who'll be able to pick and choose the best engine if the Honda comes good, with no downside of having to run it until then.
Now they're back to playing second-fiddle to a works team. Exactly where they were 4 years ago.
Even worse, if the Red Bull main team announce a switch to Honda at some point....they'll know for certain in that minute that they're back on the worst unit on the grid.

Except RB won't get to pick and choose. Renault have forced them to go Honda for 2019, whether or not the PU is competitive.

I get fanboys picking at eachother over this, but really, this deal is best for both sides! You can talk about morals and loyalties all you want, but they aren't worth anything in motorsport. It's all about competition and results, simple as that. And if you want to motivate from a stale situation, you make changes. That goes for all walks of life.

How can you think like that. Redbull didn't want renault but couldn't find any PU and kept going. After Redbull insult Renault also didn't want to supply them. I hate Redbul that time, for me Renault was right. Now it is obvious that Redbull planning to switch PU and Renault also didn't want to supply them. There is no forcing. it's normal that these are happening.
And if forcing part were true this not profe PhilipM is wrong.

[ZakB]

I really do think McLaren have shot themselves in the foot here, they've gone through 3 years of pain to develop with the Honda and they're now dumping it for an engine that's just as unreliable and handing Honda and all that work over to one of their championship contenders in the form of Red Bull, who'll be able to pick and choose the best engine if the Honda comes good, with no downside of having to run it until then.
Now they're back to playing second-fiddle to a works team. Exactly where they were 4 years ago.
Even worse, if the Red Bull main team announce a switch to Honda at some point....they'll know for certain in that minute that they're back on the worst unit on the grid.

If, maybe, possible, all your comments based on thin air. Reality: Renault miles ahead of Honda.

[Xero]

How can you think like that. Redbull didn't want renault but couldn't find any PU and kept going. After Redbull insult Renault also didn't want to supply them. I hate Redbul that time, for me Renault was right. Now it is obvious that Redbull planning to switch PU and Renault also didn't want to supply them. There is no forcing. it's normal that these are happening.
And if forcing part were true this not profe PhilipM is wrong.

I'm sure the ideal situation for Red Bull would be to keep Renault for a few more seasons while keeping an eye on the Honda's progress with Toro Rosso, then switch when they feel it's time. So yes, Renault have forced the issue with Red Bull, they no longer have any options.

Anyway, we're getting off topic. Back to McLaren, decent showing today in qually! Good opportunity for decent points tomorrow, especially if the guys in front trip over each other. I think they can race with Bottas, that Mercedes looks a right handful.

[PhillipM]

If, maybe, possible, all your comments based on thin air. Reality: Renault miles ahead of Honda.

It's as easy as this. Red Bull have a contract still with Renault that says if Honda can't provide them with an engine in 2019, Renault will still supply them. So if the Honda engine is not up to par by then, Honda can just say "Sorry, we don't have enough capacity to supply another team yet", and Red Bull sticks with a Renault.
If the Honda does come good, they can take it.

No matter what you complain about "If, Maybe, Possible" (which is a bit of disingenuous crap on your part really, as the entire thread is that, nobody knows the future) - the result is this:

1) Mclaren have locked themselves into another engine that has just as much issues with reliability this season.
2) They just lost tens of millions in Honda funding.
3) They've got to pay for an engine as well now.
4) They've given Red Bull a blinder of a hand to play, because they can directly pick the best of the two units over the next couple of years. At the very worst they'll be on parity with Mclaren but with the benefit of years of PU/Chassis integration niggles already ironed out. At best the Honda does step up it's game and Mclaren ends up still with the worst engine on the grid.

[HPD]

So ... we are 1.7 seconds from the leader and 1.5 seconds from Red Bull "Renault" ... Mmmmmmmmmm

I do not think I have to say much more.

[NL_Fer]

As long as McLaren is waiting for that Honda power, i have been waiting for circuit which shows the McL' chassis greatness.

[Chene_Mostert]

This Honda PU is worse than I expected. I really thought the chassis would be able to make up most of the power drop but... it must be allot more behind the other PU's than we are led to believe.

[DFX]

So ... we are 1.7 seconds from the leader and 1.5 seconds from Red Bull "Renault" ... Mmmmmmmmmm

I do not think I have to say much more.

How is the Renault works team chassis compared to the Red Bull? And to Mclaren?

Are we suppose to believe that Renault works have a greater or equal chassis than Mclaren?

It's way more complex than that, this is not a fair comparison.

[ZakB]

The Renault is around a second per lap quicker, so McLaren would have been right in there.

[proteus]

As long as McLaren is waiting for that Honda power, i have been waiting for circuit which shows the McL' chassis greatness.

U dont see it, or u dont want to see it?

[DFX]

Verstappen - 1.39.814
Hulkenberg - 1.41.013
Alonso - 1.41.179
Sainz - 1.42.056

This is only one track but a track which Mclaren is not so hampered by PU performance as others in the calender.
So:

If we are to believe that Honda is close to Renault right now, Mclaren chassis is at least 1s better than TR?
I think its fairer to say (only by that data) that Renault PU is still at least 1 second faster than Honda PU. Presuming that we could argue that Mclaren chassis is at least 1s better than TR chassis, which is credible by the data from other tracks and finally 1s from PU + 1s from chassis would put TR 2s behind RB and Mclaren almost in parity.

Hulkenberg performance could be explained by the difference to the works PU maybe?

Pure speculation of course, hope that is not too confuse.. It makes more sense in my native language

[Soichiro]

Verstappen - 1.39.814
Hulkenberg - 1.41.013
Alonso - 1.41.179
Sainz - 1.42.056

This is only one track but a track which Mclaren is not so hampered by PU performance as others in the calender.
So:

If we are to believe that Honda is close to Renault right now, Mclaren chassis is at least 1s better than TR?
I think its fairer to say (only by that data) that Renault PU is still at least 1 second faster than Honda PU. Presuming that we could argue that Mclaren chassis is at least 1s better than TR chassis, which is credible by the data from other tracks and finally 1s from PU + 1s from chassis would put TR 2s behind RB and Mclaren almost in parity.

Hulkenberg performance could be explained by the difference to the works PU maybe?

Pure speculation of course, hope that is not too confuse.. It makes more sense in my native language

"+1s to Renault at least" would mean Honda is 90 hp behind Renault (figuratively, taking 0.12s/10hp).
Can you show/explain that "data" you are referring to? BTW McLaren Honda were more or less 1s faster than STR. Going by your statement it would mean that compared to STR McH lost 0.2s due to Honda being inferior to Renault, so -17HP difference?

[Soichiro]

The Renault is around a second per lap quicker, so McLaren would have been right in there.

Do you have any data to support that?

[DFX]

Verstappen - 1.39.814
Hulkenberg - 1.41.013
Alonso - 1.41.179
Sainz - 1.42.056

This is only one track but a track which Mclaren is not so hampered by PU performance as others in the calender.
So:

If we are to believe that Honda is close to Renault right now, Mclaren chassis is at least 1s better than TR?
I think its fairer to say (only by that data) that Renault PU is still at least 1 second faster than Honda PU. Presuming that we could argue that Mclaren chassis is at least 1s better than TR chassis, which is credible by the data from other tracks and finally 1s from PU + 1s from chassis would put TR 2s behind RB and Mclaren almost in parity.

Hulkenberg performance could be explained by the difference to the works PU maybe?

Pure speculation of course, hope that is not too confuse.. It makes more sense in my native language

"+1s to Renault at least" would mean Honda is 90 hp behind Renault (figuratively, taking 0.12s/10hp).
Can you show/explain that "data" you are referring to? BTW McLaren Honda were more or less 1s faster than STR. Going by your statement it would mean that compared to STR McH lost 0.2s due to Honda being inferior to Renault, so -17HP difference?

I presume that this comparison of 0.12s/10hp doesnt take into account full deployment, which we are lead to believe that is the main problem in Honda PU. So maybe comparing only ICE Honda is down about to 40hp to Renault (or less) but in full deployment throughout a lap this difference raises to 100hp or even more?

Edit: Putting in other words, if the 2 PU's are in full deployment maybe they can be as close as 20hp, but Honda PU cannot sustain this output through a whole lap.

[diffuser]

I seem to remember reading that McLaren will continue to get the same amount of Money from the F1 for 3 years of being uncompetitive. After 3 years, that stops. So next year, they need to deliver or have substantial drop in funding from F1.

Could be wrong.