British GP 2011 - Silverstone

[ianwit]

McLaren said that Button was within a kilo of Lewis's fuel weight so he would have encountered the same issue had he got to the end of the race. Lewis caught and passed him fairly quickly so I say driver skill.

[PlatinumZealot]

Yes. It wasn't fuel because Button would have done the same in the opening stages, unless Button of course, just wanted to save fuel from the beginning!

Anyway.. the real crux of this matter, is that the RedBull and the Ferrari had waaaay more fuel (Hamilton had to start saving from Lap 31) and they were still faster. Sad but true.

[Just_a_fan]

Yes. It wasn't fuel because Button would have done the same in the opening stages, unless Button of course, just wanted to save fuel from the beginning!

Anyway.. the real crux of this matter, is that the RedBull and the Ferrari had waaaay more fuel (Hamilton had to start saving from Lap 31) and they were still faster. Sad but true.

Button stated quiet openly that he was too slow in the opening laps and by virtue of this he saved fuel. He wasn't doing it on purpose he just wasn't quick enough in the opening laps.

Yes, the McLaren struggled once the dry line was consistent. A shower of rain at mid race would have spiced things up nicely though...

[Caito]

Your clearly failing to see this is not about points. About if they're needed or not. It's all about money, it's business to Horner and his superior. Constructor championship means A LOT of money. 658 million dollars were given out in 2010.

Horner must ensure the constructor championship first and losing 43 points to be able to say "they may do whatever they like" is simply not worth it.

If losing that 43 points would mean there advantage to mclaren would now be of 67 points rather than 110.

It's easy to start saying all kinds of stuff if you're not in that position. I would have done the exact same thing.


Why didn't Horner just switch position rather than mantaining? That would be an option too. But I believe it would be worse. First off, if you gonna benefit someone, be the one that has higher chance to win. Second, if Webber doesn't like team orders then he shouldnt pass Vettel after a team order, etc.

[Gerhard Berger]

Your clearly failing to see this is not about points. About if they're needed or not. It's all about money, it's business to Horner and his superior. Constructor championship means A LOT of money. 658 million dollars were given out in 2010.

Horner must ensure the constructor championship first and losing 43 points to be able to say "they may do whatever they like" is simply not worth it.

If losing that 43 points would mean there advantage to mclaren would now be of 67 points rather than 110.

It's easy to start saying all kinds of stuff if you're not in that position. I would have done the exact same thing.


Why didn't Horner just switch position rather than mantaining? That would be an option too. But I believe it would be worse. First off, if you gonna benefit someone, be the one that has higher chance to win. Second, if Webber doesn't like team orders then he shouldnt pass Vettel after a team order, etc.

I completely understand that. However, if that really is Horner's thinking, it shows a complete lack of faith in his drivers' abilities.

[Richard]

As I remember it Alonso was on the tail of Massa attempting to overtake! He did not need Massa to slow down to catch him.

As I recall Massa had built a god lead then Alonso suddenly started going faster while Massa slowed. I think they used fuel saving for Massa to make it appear that Alonso was faster. We saw the same with Hamilton v Button in Turkey with different engine maps.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Richard

How do you think massa built up that lead? Alonso was going through his very own fuel saving mode allowing massa the greater margin. When the roles where switched the end result is Alonso would have overtaken.

Caito
I understand clearly. But switching drivers would be the same net result for the team. So why the order? Vettel is walking the championship, very different from Alonso last year.

[sAx]

Agreed excellent driving alongside a lower mass a result of under-fuelling. Each kilo of fuel worth in the region of 0.3s/lap, they say!

sAx

I think that's 10kg of fuel = 0.3s not 1kg of fuel = 0.3s.

Excellent, that sorts out my query on the other McLaren fueling thread – thanks.

Think your right. 150kg for 52 lap race would equate to a 5sec/lap difference between high and low fuel runs, which is about where race simulations are at.

sAx

[marcush.]

your fuelcalculation must be based on the speed required to finish the race in the lead if you are a serious challenger for the win.
If you think you will be trapped in traffic anyways for the first half of the race you may as well gamble with a few kilos but this is really a dumb idea as the extra kilos will not hurt you that much in the trapped situation anyways and the differnce towards the end must be getting smaller and smaller anyways.So the advantage is really in the first stint.As we have seen with Rosberg a low fuel startegy is backfiring very soon and all you win is a few good laps in the beginning but with the trousers below the knees it´s really not easy to run..dumb dumb dumb.Fill in enough to race all those half baked assumptions will never materialise as there are too many variables you have no handle on.

[Richard]

Or perhaps Hamilton left his engine on the richer setting for longer than planned.

[andartop]

I don't mind the team orders, never did. Whether it was necessary or not we'll find out at the end of the year, when we'll know with how many races to spare did Vettel win the title and where did Webber end up. What I do mind is all the hypocrisy, hence from now on I will refer to the team as Red Bull S*&t. And for those who argue that team orders are now legal, so were they back in Austria 2002..

As for Webber, I'll just repeat what I've been saying all along for Massa: if they are not happy getting paid millions to drive one of the fastest race cars on earth but have to follow team orders, they may as well leave for another team (or race series). If they want to stay, they may as well s*&t up and do as they are told. You can't have it both ways. It's not like it came out of nowhere, and when you're playing a team sport you have to follow team orders.

[MrBlacky]

Horner could call Webber to overtake Vettel and say Vettel he shall no defend himself.
They have 2nd and 3rd place secure and Webber gains some more points.

So FOR ME that was a vettel favor.

[Caito]

Let me remind that RedBull did very well at the 2010 championship, with bad luck. They aren't exent of bad luck this year(it hasn't come yet) and Ferrari might be making a comeback.


Vettel won by just 4 points last year. So don't say that Vettel would still be winning for just a couple of points. Because it's that little couple of points that may decide the campionship, you never know. Maybe he wins the championship with 3,4 races advantage, maybe not.

[Ray]

You can make any kind of excuses but the facts remain that Webber has had a bunch of accidents of which I even forgot to mention the one in Korea. Sure his fans will always find a reason why it was not his fault to run into another car from behind or not to break after loosing control of his car in the rain.

You also forgot when Lewis hit him in Canada. Not his fault. Vettel has hit more people in dodgy conditions for a legitimate overtake than Webber has due to his own actions. None of the examples you gave were mistakes by Webber. Vettel took out Webber in Turkey, Vettel hit Button in Spa. Webber lost control in Korea in sopping wet conditions, yes it was a mistake but it wasn't him hitting another driver while trying to overtake. You fail to forget the whole premise of the team order, which the legality of hasn't been challenged by anyone but you in defense of Vettel, which was to prevent a collision between the two Red Bull drivers. Again, the only one guilty of that between the two is Vettel. End of story. You've only given examples of crashes that were legit mistakes (Korea but he didn't hit someone trying to overtake), or something that wasn't Mark's fault. I like Vettel alot, I think he's a great driver and a wonderful kid. But calling for Mark to back off for the reasons Horner gave are complete BS and extremely hypocritical.

EDIT: Vettel almost took out Webber in Turkey. Sorry for the foul language Giblet.

[RB7ate9]

Hello,

Long time reader, first time poster.

There are two aspects to "Maintain the Gap." One is strategic, the other is tactical. When I say "tactical," I mean for the drivers themselves. Strategic, as one would guess, refers to the larger goals of the racing team over the entire racing season.

Tactically, for Vettel, it was the right call. He kept that many more points in the push for a comfy position as WDC. If I were Vettel, I would've defended and thank my stars for the call, even if Webber "ignored" them.

Tactically, for Webber, it was a bit of a disaster, since he has to contend with points with the rest of the pack, the few bit of points between second and third are vital. I would feel just as pissed and would have tried fighting. To be honest, though, I think Webber didn't push as hard as he could've if he was completely ignoring team orders since he understood the risks to the team as a whole. That's just my fanboy thought.

Strategically, Horner and the team made the right call. With both drivers so close to the end, with 1st place so far away in the hands of Alonso, you want to make sure all of your cars make it across the line with drivers on the podium. And - in another fanboy rant - he might have made the call because both their tires were just about gone so Webber was sliding about, and the last thing he needed was a twitchy Vettel (based on Turkey '10 and Montreal recently) to try and defend his position against a very capable and dashing Webber.

It bothers me that Red Bull wasn't more upfront with team orders, and I feel Webber should be supported as much as possible to get at least one GP win, but I get where they were coming from.

-End long post