Vettel just shy of Grand Slam, Hamilton beats penalty record

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

@ raymond

When has Vettel displayed true race craft?

He has displayed his pace aplenty. But true racecraft I have yet too see from him in my opinion.
When he doesnt have one lap pace, he seems to get stuck behind others and doesnt risk a move. When he does attempt the move it can end in tears alot of the time. I would love to compared his stats in making succesful passes for podium places compare to that of his main rivals.
You may call this mature and looking at the big picture. However I would bet my last dollar that both Lewis and Fernando would be more aggressive in the race.


Vettel reminds me very much of Mika Hakkinen, one of my all time favourites. Mika had demonic one lap pace, and had phases in a grand prix race where it seems he was driving a different machine to that of his team mate. The difference I think is that Hakkinen was prone to the odd error when out on his own, but also that Hakkinen showed he can mix it with the very best if the chips are down in making the moves when required(2000)

[kalinka]

+1 JET
And no, I didn't intend to discredit Vettel as WDC in my previous post. Indeed the true racecraft is yet unproven and that's only what I pointed out. The speed is there, he's really a nice guy, just that little spark is missing there IMHO.

[raymondu999]

JET - I never said he did

[Richard]

errr... this is a man who is going to record the most dominant season in F1.

He can't be blamed for not demonstrating any "race craft" because he's always been out in front on his own - he's rarely had anyone to race against!

[ringo]

What do you even know about me?...your assumption only highlights your ignorance.

Vettel is a cut above the rest of any of the current drivers on the track at the moment.(Except maybe Alonso). He is more dedicated, intelligent, faster and extracts more out of a car than any person knows how to.

Now what makes this different than any Hamilton fan boy?
Even they aren't as careless in their statements.

This is your opinion and it's your right to say this, but i'm just pointing out that it's a sin when it's Hamilton, not other drivers.

I respectfully diagree with you.

this what i think:

RB7 is a cut above the rest of any of the current cars on the track at the moment.(Except maybe the safety car). Newey is more dedicated, intelligent, faster and extracts more out of a car than any person knows how to.

[kalinka]

errr... this is a man who is going to record the most dominant season in F1.

He can't be blamed for not demonstrating any "race craft" because he's always been out in front on his own - he's rarely had anyone to race against!

It's ok what you say, what I'm just trying to say : he's not yet proved that racecraft. He didn't get the chance to do it 2011, it's OK too. I'm just in a little doubt does he has it at all ?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

errr... this is a man who is going to record the most dominant season in F1.

He can't be blamed for not demonstrating any "race craft" because he's always been out in front on his own - he's rarely had anyone to race against!

Is that reason to say he has fantastic racecraft?

Im saying he hasn't displayed any that warrants praise, nothing slap headed about that.
Having a crushing car advantage, and scampering off into the distance is not racecraft. For that you need to see Schumacher push Hakkinen in an inferior machine in 98 and to a lesser extent 99.

Button has been praised for his racecraft. Vettel has been praised for his speed and maturity. He can bring a fast car home, does this make him worthy to mentioend as equal to Hamilton or Alonso? I dont thinks so, not yet anyway...

[Traction]

What do you even know about me?...your assumption only highlights your ignorance.

Vettel is a cut above the rest of any of the current drivers on the track at the moment.(Except maybe Alonso). He is more dedicated, intelligent, faster and extracts more out of a car than any person knows how to.

Now what makes this different than any Hamilton fan boy?
Even they aren't as careless in their statements.

This is your opinion and it's your right to say this, but i'm just pointing out that it's a sin when it's Hamilton, not other drivers.

I respectfully diagree with you.

this what i think:

RB7 is a cut above the rest of any of the current cars on the track at the moment.(Except maybe the safety car). Newey is more dedicated, intelligent, faster and extracts more out of a car than any person knows how to.

Any opportunity to defend LH huh? But anyway i'll answer that question. If Vettel has a crap race or makes a mistake, or crashes into someone when he is trying to hard, I'll be the first to admit the error of his ways...that's the difference, LH fanboys just will never ever admit to anything.

ljust remember this....Newey isn't out on the track driving the car every race.

[Traction]

errr... this is a man who is going to record the most dominant season in F1.

He can't be blamed for not demonstrating any "race craft" because he's always been out in front on his own - he's rarely had anyone to race against!

Is that reason to say he has fantastic racecraft?

Im saying he hasn't displayed any that warrants praise, nothing slap headed about that.
Having a crushing car advantage, and scampering off into the distance is not racecraft. For that you need to see Schumacher push Hakkinen in an inferior machine in 98 and to a lesser extent 99.

Button has been praised for his racecraft. Vettel has been praised for his speed and maturity. He can bring a fast car home, does this make him worthy to mentioend as equal to Hamilton or Alonso? I dont thinks so, not yet anyway...

With the amount of crashes LH has been involved in as of late I really don't think his race craft is up where people say it is. JMO........

[izybluffen]

Agree with Jet again. I also have compared Seb to Hakiknen and Webber to Coulthard in that 98-2000 period. Seb/Hakkinen was better at pole, getting better starts and being generally quicker. Webber/Coulthard had the superior racecraft.

There's plenty of people around (not just here) talking up Vettel as maybe becoming one of the greats and even comparing him to Senna.
Lets just look at some stats here:
How many poles and wins each driver has had in ordinary machinery:
Senna- 16 poles and 6 wins at Lotus(could of won more if he didn't run out of fuel and mechanical unreliability), 2 poles and 7 wins in 92,93 Macca against the might of the Williams Renault's.
Seb- 1 pole and 1 win - That's not even a comparison, not the same ball park. How can anyone in their right mind compare Seb to demi-god Senna.
So many people talk up Seb's Monza win as if he did it in his own right. That was more like one of the luckiest examples ever.
All the front runners were caught out by the conditions and didn't even make it to Q3, other wise Vettel would not have got the pole. Then with all the best guys starting mid pack, he was also very lucky. It's not like Seb beat them all in his own right, unlike Senna who's first win he wiped the floor with everyone by skill, not by luck. Senna almost won his first GP in his first season in one of the crappiest cars on the grid.
So yes, I say again, when Seb does not have the clear best car he does not win. I'm still waiting for him to genuinely prove otherwise, without luck and with all the competition there.

[beelsebob]

Agree with Jet again. I also have compared Seb to Hakiknen and Webber to Coulthard in that 98-2000 period. Seb/Hakkinen was better at pole, getting better starts and being generally quicker. Webber/Coulthard had the superior racecraft.

Aside – Coulthard was actually known for his demon starts, he kinda got castrated when they allowed traction control.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Traction,

Thats true, but Hamilton has displayed this prior to this year. He also matched Alonso(some say beat, in my book the pair matched each other) in 2007 in a year both offered some very impressive drives.

One thing is for sure with Hamilton, he impresses more than he disappoints. And he has done so with Alonso, Button and Kovalainen as team mates.
Bourdais, Webber and Speed with all due respect do not compare to the above three.

For me at least, the Jury is still out on Vettel as he hasnt been tested due to the various factors surrounding his career thus far.
Thats not a criticism of him, just that we have yet to see it. But there are signs that he struggles when faced with chasing down opponents in front of him. Thats not a judgement, but an observation. In time he may become a demonic overtaker and bang wheels with the best. But right now, its not what his reputation is built on.

[Richard]

JET & Kalinka - Alas, not everyone in the world is as level headed as you.

Don't let that boost your ego either - no one is completely level headed

izy 1 - That "crappiest car of the season" finished 2, 7, 3, 3 in Senna's hands. Stefan Johansson drove it to 4th in his first outing in it at Monza. It must have had reasonably good pace considering Johansson previous dire record.

[Traction]

Agree with Jet again. I also have compared Seb to Hakiknen and Webber to Coulthard in that 98-2000 period. Seb/Hakkinen was better at pole, getting better starts and being generally quicker. Webber/Coulthard had the superior racecraft.

There's plenty of people around (not just here) talking up Vettel as maybe becoming one of the greats and even comparing him to Senna.
Lets just look at some stats here:
How many poles and wins each driver has had in ordinary machinery:
Senna- 16 poles and 6 wins at Lotus(could of won more if he didn't run out of fuel and mechanical unreliability), 2 poles and 7 wins in 92,93 Macca against the might of the Williams Renault's.
Seb- 1 pole and 1 win - That's not even a comparison, not the same ball park. How can anyone in their right mind compare Seb to demi-god Senna.
So many people talk up Seb's Monza win as if he did it in his own right. That was more like one of the luckiest examples ever.
All the front runners were caught out by the conditions and didn't even make it to Q3, other wise Vettel would not have got the pole. Then with all the best guys starting mid pack, he was also very lucky. It's not like Seb beat them all in his own right, unlike Senna who's first win he wiped the floor with everyone by skill, not by luck. Senna almost won his first GP in his first season in one of the crappiest cars on the grid.
So yes, I say again, when Seb does not have the clear best car he does not win. I'm still waiting for him to genuinely prove otherwise, without luck and with all the competition there.

Actually in Sennas first 4 years he only won about 6 races....his first season he never won squat...in saying that lets not disagree on one thing...he certainly was the greatest driver.

[Traction]

Traction,

Thats true, but Hamilton has displayed this prior to this year. He also matched Alonso(some say beat, in my book the pair matched each other) in 2007 in a year both offered some very impressive drives.

One thing is for sure with Hamilton, he impresses more than he disappoints. And he has done so with Alonso, Button and Kovalainen as team mates.
Bourdais, Webber and Speed with all due respect do not compare to the above three.

For me at least, the Jury is still out on Vettel as he hasnt been tested due to the various factors surrounding his career thus far.
Thats not a criticism of him, just that we have yet to see it. But there are signs that he struggles when faced with chasing down opponents in front of him. Thats not a judgement, but an observation. In time he may become a demonic overtaker and bang wheels with the best. But right now, its not what his reputation is built on.

He teamed up with Alonso for one season and they won teh same amount of races and ended up on the same points.

I would hardly call Heikki Kovalainen a worthy team mate....

Its only Button that I would rate as anything of value and well the points at the moment speak volumes.