Did Bernie lie?

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
bhall
bhall
244
Joined: 28 Feb 2006, 21:26

Re: Did Bernie lie?

Post

WhiteBlue wrote: Autoweek reported a different take on that view.
[...]
I don't think "different" means what you think it means.
I wrote: [...]
If Ecclestone is removed from his position, it's only likely to happen after he's incarcerated for something. Otherwise, I doubt he'll fire himself.
I suppose this must be "different," too.
Mr Ecclestone says CVC “will probably be forced to get rid of me if the Germans come after me. It’s pretty obvious, if I’m locked up”.

User avatar
WhiteBlue
92
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: Did Bernie lie?

Post

We know what you predicted. You said Bernie will not be dropped by CVC if he gets indicted. He will only stop as CEO of FOM if he is in Jail.
Several other figures in the media and F1 took another point of view which I shared. If Bernie gets indicted he will become untenable for CVC. Both opinions differ somewhat with regard to the robustness of Bernie's position in the business.
It looks like we will see soon enough who was right.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

bhall
bhall
244
Joined: 28 Feb 2006, 21:26

Re: Did Bernie lie?

Post

[Nevermind. This is pointless. You're just going to make up something for me anyway. Have at it.]

User avatar
strad
117
Joined: 02 Jan 2010, 01:57

Re: Did Bernie lie?

Post

Bernie Ecclestone has admitted that he would likely be removed from his role as Formula 1 supremo if he faces further action over the Gerhard Gribkowsky bribery case.


Ecclestone is still awaiting news from German prosecutors over whether or not they intend to charge him amid allegations that he paid a bribe to Gribkowsky over the sale of F1 to CVC in 2006.

Gribkowsky has already been jailed for his part in the affair.

Although Ecclestone is adamant that a 45 million euro payment he made to Gribkowsky was not bribery, German prosecutors are still investigating if there are corruption charges to answer.

In an interview with The Sunday Telegraph, Ecclestone has conceded for the first time that if further action is taken against him then his running of F1 would likely come to an end.

Speaking about what CVC would do if he was charged, Ecclestone said: "[It] will probably be forced to get rid of me if the Germans come after me. It's pretty obvious, if I'm locked up."

CVC has already been pondering a succession plan for what happens when Ecclestone is no longer in charge, but the man himself does not believe its actions are cause to feel that it is looking to ease him out.

"They said they had hired a head-hunter to find somebody in the event that I was not going to be there - if I was going to die or something. It is the normal thing they do to keep people happy," he said.

Ecclestone's comments about his future come just a few weeks after Ferrari president Luca di Montezemolo suggested that change would be needed if German prosecutors acted.

"First of all, I hope for Bernie and F1 that nothing will happen," said Di Montezemolo during a pre-Christmas media lunch. "If Bernie is accused under process I think he will be the first to give a step back in the interests of Formula 1. This could be bad for F1."

Di Montezemolo reckoned that the time had come for new younger management to take over the running of F1, so it could build a stronger future.

"We need people with a more modern view. It is the same in my company. In a couple of years I will no longer be the person for Ferrari. Someone else will come.

"What I always say to Bernie is that the one-man show in life is finished. You need a team around you. We have to ask these questions in a positive way and look ahead. Sooner or later it will happen to Bernie as to me."
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

User avatar
Hail22
144
Joined: 08 Feb 2012, 07:22

Re: Did Bernie lie?

Post

http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/story/98154.html

Bernie, Believes he is innocent. But don't most people say they're innocent when the heat is being applied to them?
If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari.

Gilles Villeneuve

User avatar
FoxHound
55
Joined: 23 Aug 2012, 16:50

Re: Did Bernie lie?

Post

Hail22 wrote:http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/story/98154.html

Bernie, Believes he is innocent. But don't most people say they're innocent when the heat is being applied to them?
Gibrowsky was convicted of taking a bribe from Bernie. He may think he is innocent, at his age dementia onset is not unheard of...but the fact remains he paid Gibrowsky.
The question is whether the German authorities want to take the case further.
JET set

User avatar
WhiteBlue
92
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: Did Bernie lie?

Post

FoxHound wrote:The question is whether the German authorities want to take the case further.
That is a question of resource management in my view. At the moment they would get very little reward for their effort as Bernie's word would stand against Griebkowskie's about the nature of the payment. Under the normal assumption of innocence they would probably see Bernie walking out of the court.

Things could look very different if the claim of Bluewater is proven in the US courts. They say that Bernie suppressed a higher bid by them in order to get CVC the deal and the CEO position for himself. If the US court approves that claim there is a big motive established by a law court for bribery. Bernie desperately wanted to keep control of the sport which makes it pretty obvious that indeed bribery happened and not a shake down with a tax whistle blowing threat. I think no judge or jury would believe Bernie's story once the Bluewater claim is proven in court. So it makes sense for the prosecutors here to wait a little longer and have a stronger case.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

Richard
Richard
Moderator
Joined: 15 Apr 2009, 14:41
Location: UK

Re: Did Bernie lie?

Post

Lets not forget that the burden for proof is lower in civil cases than criminal cases. Also the motives for prosecution are very different

So at one end of the scale, an aggrieved party could claim damages that Bernie messed up the process because they are annoyed that they lost. The courts might agree but think the resulting damage was only academic, hence nominal damages. At the other end of the scale, the civil case might flush out new evidence that results in crippling damages. That evidence might also meet the burden of proof for criminal courts so public prosecutors think it a worthwhile use of resource to proceed with criminal action.

Of course this is all tempered by the differing views of differing judicial systems. Some only award civil damages on the basis of losses incurred by the plaintiff. Others impose punitive damages to punish wrongdoing and plaintiffs hope to cash in on that. Some public persecutors use the law like a hammer, others have a different test of public interest or have more limited resources. We also have to factor in endemic plea bargaining in some jurisdictions.

My hunch is that the US case is ambulance chasing that simply results in a stalemate and a nice earner for the lawyers. As for the German case, the prosecutors have got their main target, ie the corrupt public official. I guess they might go for Bernie if the evidence is overwhelming and easy to prove, but I suspect they'll want to use their resources to focus on other cases.

User avatar
Hail22
144
Joined: 08 Feb 2012, 07:22

Re: Did Bernie lie?

Post

http://www.f1sa.com/index.php?option=co ... Itemid=157

I thought this would be the best place to post this instead of making a new topic, surely this is a joke? unless of course they're banning him from using twitter as there may be impending doom for the Lord of lies?
If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari.

Gilles Villeneuve

User avatar
Hail22
144
Joined: 08 Feb 2012, 07:22

Re: Did Bernie lie?

Post

Looks like the prosecution has filed its charge sheet to Bernie Ecclestone but has yet to be "translated"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/22544436

Karma slowly catching up to him?
If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari.

Gilles Villeneuve

User avatar
Cam
45
Joined: 02 Mar 2012, 08:38

Re: Did Bernie lie?

Post

Well, Bernie could be in for a rough ride.
Germany has ratified the OECD Anti Bribery Convention and implemented it by adopting the above mentioned IntBestG. The convention deals with the "active" side of corruption in international business transactions and encourages legislative efforts aimed to combat foreign corruption.
There's some good scope of punishments in German Law for him if he's found guilty:
Penalties
The penalties for the aforementioned offences range from fines to imprisonment and vary substantially depending on the nature and seriousness of the offence.
Individuals
The offence of bribing a public official is punishable with a fine or a prison term of up to three years. In its aggravated form (Sec. 334 StGB), the minimum prison sentence for bribing a public official is three months, while the maximum sentence is five years. Bribing judges or arbitrators is, under certain circumstances, punishable with higher prison sentences (see Sec. 333 (2), Sec. 334 (2) StGB).
In especially serious cases, the prison sentence for bribing a public official is between one year and ten years (Sec. 335 (1) StGB). An especially serious case within the meaning of this provision typically occurs, inter alia, when the offence relates to a major benefit (starting at around 10,000 Euros).
Bribing in commercial practice is punishable with fines or imprisonment of up to three years. In especially serious cases, the sentencing range is from three months to five years in prison (Sec. 300 StGB).
The punishment for bribing delegates is imprisonment not exceeding five years or a fine. In addition to a sentence of imprisonment of at least six months the court may order the loss of the ability to hold public office, to vote and to be elected in public elections (Sec. 108e (2) StGB).
Plus, looks like there's scope to add in charges:
V Associated offences: financial record keeping and money laundering
Past cases of corruption have shown that bribery is in many instances accompanied by other criminal offences including fraud (Sec. 263 et seq. StGB), embezzlement and abuse of trust (Sec. 266 StGB), restricting competition through agreements in the context of public bids (Sec. 298 StGB) and tax evasion (Sec. 370 of the German Fiscal Code). Moreover, bribery is explicitly mentioned in the provision regarding money laundering (Sec. 261 (1) No. 2 (a) StGB).
With Germany taking a public "we're the leaders on cracking down on this sort of thing" approach - it'll be intersting to see what results from all this.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
― Socrates
Ignorance is a state of being uninformed. Ignorant describes a person in the state of being unaware
who deliberately ignores or disregards important information or facts. © all rights reserved.

User avatar
turbof1
Moderator
Joined: 19 Jul 2012, 21:36
Location: MountDoom CFD Matrix

Re: Did Bernie lie?

Post

I don't think they will effectively jail him. He is in his 80's. Expect a fine.
#AeroFrodo

CBeck113
CBeck113
51
Joined: 17 Feb 2013, 19:43

Re: Did Bernie lie?

Post

The laws for tax evasion, black mail and other "greed" crimes are much more severe than for crimes of passion - he would have gotten off much more easily if they had argued and Bernie threatened (or raped :o ) him. Too late now though...they will hit him in the wallet, and make sure he gives up his post. But THAT won't be bribery, right?
“Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!” Monty Python and the Holy Grail

Richard
Richard
Moderator
Joined: 15 Apr 2009, 14:41
Location: UK

Re: Did Bernie lie?

Post

Is Germany's implementation of the OECD Anti Bribery Convention retrospective? I doubt it. If so then its irrelevant to this case.

User avatar
Gridlock
30
Joined: 27 Jan 2012, 04:14

Re: Did Bernie lie?

Post

You're severely testing Betteridge's Law of Headlines with this thread title.
#58