2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
gruntguru
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Interesting, I hadn't seen that before. Looks like a good concept.
je suis charlie

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PlatinumZealot
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"cute"

Image

I like the simplicity. How did it run?
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Brian Coat
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nokivasara wrote:Chainsaws and garden equipment of today uses something that's called stratified scavenging, with two sets of intake ports as I understand it, to create a layer of clean air in the transfer port which is used to push out the exhaust gasses. I'm not sure I have understood it correctly, but it sounds like a good way for decreasing emissions and improving fuel efficiency.

What's your take on it?
It was/is a technology to get carburetted 2 stroke chainsaws etc thru EPA2 without a catalyst

The EPA emissions standards for chainsaws etc. went EPA1 hundreds of g/kWh, EPA2 fifty-ish; EPA3 10-ish g/kWh

HC emissions of 100s of g/kWh implies a HUGE proportion of the fuel used going down the exhaust port unburned. So this lead air concept stemmed that but did not really address the problem with the carbureted 2 stroke and HC emissions.

To put it in perspective, until 2001 the BSHC std for a chainsaw under 20cc was 295g/kWh which is way more than the BSFC of a current F1 car.

They were dumping enough fuel down the port to power a 4 stroke (or injected 2 stroke, I guess).

manolis
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Hello.

At http://patft.uspto.gov/ there is a series of patents like:

US5425346 (Mavinahally, 1993)

US7082910 (Electrolux)

US8881696 (Stihl)

US8833316 (Husqvarna)

wherein,

in order to reduce the emissions and the fuel consumption of a 2-stroke,

the scavenging starts with a quantity of clean air (or exhaust gas) trapped, during the previous admission cycle, at the top of the transfer passageway / pipe.


Reasonable questions:

with the exhaust port remaining open for some 20 crankshaft degrees after the end of the transfer, what stops a quantity of air-fuel mixture from inside the cylinder to escape unburned towards the exhaust and the atmosphere?

Is it possible the charge into the cylinder to remain, after the end of the transfer, substantially heterogeneous with the clean air in front and around the exhaust port?


The "buffer of air" is, without a doubt, a clever solution; but it is also an incomplete one.


What if we could close the exhaust earlier than the transfer?

Image

More at: http://www.pattakon.com/pattakonPatAT.htm


And what if we could reduce, or even eliminate, the overlap between the exhaust and the transfer?

Image

Image

Wouldn’t, in such a case, the exhaust emissions (and fuel consumption) be similar to, or less than, those of a similar power four-stroke?

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

manolis
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Hello PlatinumZealot

The weight of the 333cc OPRE Tilting prototype:

Image

(videos etc at http://www.pattakon.com/pattakonTilting.htm )

is 8.5Kp (19lb) and it is a prototype.


Think of the weight of a 50cc OPRE Tilting for a chainsaw.

Also think of its vibration-free quality (NVH) in comparison to the existing solutions.


Depending on the crankshaft angle, the “tilting” valve at the small end of each connecting rod allows / prevents the communication of the non-pressurized crankcase with its respective scavenging pump.

Additional time is provided (some 30% longer piston dwell) at the Combustion Dead Center (due to the pulling rod arrangement).

The small distance of the two crankshafts makes the synchronization easy and lightweight.

The thrust loads are taken at the cold – and rid of ports – side of the cylinder.


If there is something you want to ask, please.

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

Brian Coat
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Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Quote:"And what if we could reduce, or even eliminate, the overlap between the exhaust and the transfer?"

Not sure. I can think of the usual gas exchange process pros and cons.

Would it actually be necessary if you have GDI?
Last edited by Brian Coat on 08 Dec 2015, 14:47, edited 1 time in total.

gruntguru
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GDI is of course the better solution.

A 2-stroke with no overlap? In the absence of wave tuning, there would be massive EGR and little transfer of fresh charge ie the system would rely heavily on wave tuning which of course is highly rpm-specific. (Assuming crankcase scavenging only)
je suis charlie

manolis
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Hello.

Theoretically the GDi is a good (the best) solution for the two strokes.
In practice several engine makers tried it without success.
Today there are neither cars, nor motorcycles in Europe’s or USA’s roads powered by 2-stroke engines.

Smaller companies tried it, too.

Orbital’s solution was promising.

The recent Rotax E-TEC (some 200bhp/lt with relatively good emissions and relatively low BSFC) was also promising. It seems it is now abandoned.

In most cases compressed air is used to inject / disperse the fuel after the closing of the exhaust ports.

Besides the emissions and the BSFC, the lubrication and the scuffing resistance are significant issues to be addressed, too.

GDi in a chainsaw sounds too much.



The typical 2-stroke is based on the scavenging / sweeping of the cylinder by the fresh charge.

The carbureted PatAT 2-stroke with the zero overlap between the transfer and the exhaust:

Image

is based on a different principle:

Only “after” the closing of the exhaust the transfer opens.
Actually, it does not need to be literally “after”: an adequately short overlap can achieve the same, improving at the same time the “volumetric efficiency.

A part of the compressed, into the crankcase, fresh mixture (primary compression) passes, through the open transfer, into the cylinder (the pressure into the cylinder at the end of the exhaust is about 1 bar).

After the closing of the transfer ports, the gas into the cylinder (which contains a good quantity of exhaust gas / internal EGR) is compressed, burned and expanded.
The downwardly moving piston opens, before the exhaust ports, the transfer ports; but the connecting rod prevents the communication of the cylinder with the crankcase until the end of the exhaust.

Obviously the quantity of fresh charge entering into the cylinder is less than in a typical 2-stroke.
On the other hand, the quantity of unburned fuel escaping to the exhaust has reasons to be less than in the GDi 2-strokes.

Less power, but clean power (and cheap power).

When more power is required, the same engine can easily turn to a conventional 2-stroke:

Image

(more at http://www.pattakon.com/pattakonPatAT.htm )

It reminds the way the modern car engines are tuned to comply with the emission standards:
At low load and low-medium revs they operate green and fuel-efficient.
When it is required, they can provide a lot of additional (but not green, nor fuel efficient) power. This explains how the real-life tests (fuel consumption) are so different than the official urban and extra-urban figures.

Worth to mention that with a catalyst the problem is not really solved. With a catalyst you can burn the unburned fuel, but you can do nothing about the fuel consumption.

As Brian Coat described it, if for each kWh provided by a pre-2001 2-stroke you gather the unburned fuel emitted by its exhaust and feed with it a good 4-stroke engine, you can produce one more kWh of energy!


The best, by far, solution for the 2-strokes is the compression ignition (Diesel cycle) with direct injection of fuel.
The lean burn (which is a big problem for the spark ignition engines) is the way the Diesels operate: from extremely lean (idling) to almost stoichiometric (at full load).

Image

A good Diesel is a turbocharged Diesel.
For the conventional 2-strokes the closing of the exhaust substantially (some 20 crank degrees) after the transfer spoils the turbocharging.
With the exhaust closing earlier than the transfer, the air from inside the cylinder has not the chance to escape.

Image

See how the above design handles the lubrication:

The crankcase has true 4-stroke lubrication.

The thrust loads are taken by the skirt of the piston (below the oil ring) abuting on the lower cylinder liner, wherein there is plenty of lubricant.

The oil ring (just above the piston ring) never passes over the ports of the cylinder.

When the piston is at the BDC, the lower compression ring abuts on the cylinder liner surface wherein, 180 crankshaft degrees before, it was abutting / oiling the oil ring.

Just follow the animation.

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos
Last edited by manolis on 09 Dec 2015, 09:47, edited 1 time in total.

uniflow
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Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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https://youtu.be/P9Muk7rI24w

Sleeve engine free running

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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gruntguru wrote:GDI is of course the better solution.

A 2-stroke with no overlap? In the absence of wave tuning, there would be massive EGR and little transfer of fresh charge ie the system would rely heavily on wave tuning which of course is highly rpm-specific. (Assuming crankcase scavenging only)

In fact, for machines - such as bikes - that benefit from a wide 'powerband', variable 'wave tuning' have long since been in use.
Funnily enough, the electro-mechanical servo operated drum-type exhaust valve Yamaha developed for its 2-strokes as a
'power-valve' - has seen decades of use on its 4-strokes as an exhaust wave tuning device, for emissions reasons..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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uniflow wrote:https://youtu.be/P9Muk7rI24w

Sleeve engine free running

Good effort there U!

It is remarkably quiet too, given no exhaust pipe/muffler..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

manolis
manolis
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Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Hello Uniflow.

Nice video.
Congratulations.
Good luck

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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manolis wrote:Hello.

Theoretically the GDi is a good (the best) solution for the two strokes.
In practice several engine makers tried it without success.
Today there are neither cars, nor motorcycles in Europe’s or USA’s roads powered by 2-stroke engines.

Smaller companies tried it, too.

Orbital’s solution was promising.

The recent Rotax E-TEC (some 200bhp/lt with relatively good emissions and relatively low BSFC) was also promising. It seems it is now abandoned.


Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

Thanks for the informative as ever post, Manolis.


But actually Manolis, I think you'll find that Bombardier E-TEC 2Ts are still going strong, for marine, & snowcraft..
& Aprilia is still selling Orbital-type 2T scooters for road use, ( indeed Jawa still sells 2T roadbikes in Britain)..

KTM is sitting on a road-legal 2T DFI system developed by BMW for Husqvarna - shortly before KTM bought them..

& NATO forces still currently utilize 2T Detroit Diesel mills for many auto-motive applications in military machines.
Renault is also working on a 2T diesel specifically to overcome the difficult particulate emissions issues faced by 4Ts..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
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Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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manolis wrote:Hello PlatinumZealot

The weight of the 333cc OPRE Tilting prototype:

http://www.pattakon.com/tilting/OPRE_tilting_prot_1.jpg

(videos etc at http://www.pattakon.com/pattakonTilting.htm )

is 8.5Kp (19lb) and it is a prototype.


Think of the weight of a 50cc OPRE Tilting for a chainsaw.

Also think of its vibration-free quality (NVH) in comparison to the existing solutions.


Depending on the crankshaft angle, the “tilting” valve at the small end of each connecting rod allows / prevents the communication of the non-pressurized crankcase with its respective scavenging pump.

Additional time is provided (some 30% longer piston dwell) at the Combustion Dead Center (due to the pulling rod arrangement).

The small distance of the two crankshafts makes the synchronization easy and lightweight.

The thrust loads are taken at the cold – and rid of ports – side of the cylinder.


If there is something you want to ask, please.

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos
I notice the wrist pin is on the far side of the pistons. In theory this makes the piston more unstable and should increase side-load at the top of the piston. Did you notice this while running?
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uniflow
uniflow
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Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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uniflow wrote:https://youtu.be/P9Muk7rI24w

Sleeve engine free running
I know it's worthless free running an engine like this, I just wanted to hear it go. At least it's in a bike frame and can be tested in the yard or on the dyno when I put the rest of the gearbox (and exhausts) on. And water system.