Rob Wilson - driver coach?

[gato azul]

maybe some graphics will help to illustrate one point or the other.





as for the term "V-shaping" as I said earlier, it probably refers more to the appearance of the velocity vs. distance trace in the data, then it does to the actual driving line on the track, especially in ~90° corners.



Have fun with it

[raymondu999]

You described my words perfectly azul. Thanks

[gato azul]

your welcome RM999

Just to trow in some other considerations, which brings us back to the driving style is/can be car/tyre specific
Here a recent interview with an F1 engineer.





Another, more general thought on the subject.
In sailing, especially when sailing multihulls, there is the expression/term of VMG (velocity made good)
Which in a nutshell means, you can go the longer way between two points, if this allows you to maintain an higher average
velocity, you will be still faster.
This will apply to a chosen driving line as well, when it helps to "play to the strength of the car/tyre combo".
Remember, that you want to go forward, as fast as you can, therefore "forward" acceleration is what will bring you faster towards the end of the lap/race. Lateral acceleration goes in the "wrong direction" so to speak.

[Andrew F]

Guys. thank you so much.

Ironically, i'm rationally (in my head) up to a point in thought i was a couple of nights ago.

i think my thoughts were affected partially by an xbox game i play named f1 2011. the brakes are unrealistically powerful, to the point where you can drive down a straight at high speed and be on the brakes, off the brakes in 1 second and back on the power. when i first went karting, i naturally trail braked (i knew the concept thanks ) but on the game it was hard to trail brake in terms of late apexing - because your transition would have to be so quick.

i'd seen/read the wheel and rope concept which i understood but i didn't know the answer to this:
is it possible to go faster without using maximum combined latitudinal/longitiudinal grip..almost focusing on 2 long straight lines joined with a turn of small radiues (where only latitudinal grip is maxed out) ..forming a "v" shape in terms of line AND on the graph.

I was also confused as to why f1 drivers seem to brake to apex nearly always!

those diagrams and your explanations seem to have cleared this up..

1.so i'm correct in thinking, if you late apex, you can accelerate before the apex and get throttle down earlier? i wonder why i don't see many f1 drivers doing this - i thought senna was a fan of it and hamilton? never see hamilton do it tho.

2. if i like to late apex by driving style, i must brake first and then turn in with an element of braking...because by trail braking i am: braking later, maintaining speed higher speed for longer on corner entry and...still not sacrfificing exit speed (because i still aim to accelerate at the same point).

am i right here?

if this is correct, during track practise, would it be wise to determine the braking point (say 100m marker) and the latest turn in point (say 50m marker) for first few laps using threshold braking ...so i'm not maximising grip at first as i turn in on 50m marker...then once im comfortable, brake a little later next few laps ...say, 90 metetre marker, still turning in at the 50m marker but this time, with a little brake?

so essentially, trail braking shifts the braking point back, but doesn affect turn in or acceleration points and just requires the brakes are covered when turn in happens?

sorry if i sound blonde lol

[Andrew F]

p.s. surely the graph and racing line are strongly linked?i.e. if hamilton was a V, he's braking sharper, turning aggressively and quickly, then getting on throttle quickly (less time in turn, less time at lowest speed) whereas button tries to have a smoother line, maximise radius...(turning longer and more gradual inputs). this is what rob said damaged buttons tyres at canada - more time in the turn. this is another can of worms as i always thought turning gradually was a tyres saver and braking hard like hamilton wore the tyres...but that's another thread lol

[timbo]

maybe some graphics will help to illustrate one point or the other.

as for the term "V-shaping" as I said earlier, it probably refers more to the appearance of the velocity vs. distance trace in the data, then it does to the actual driving line on the track, especially in ~90° corners.

It's funny how it relates to my experiences in Ferrari Virtual Academy. I naturally gravitated towards V-trace, but in fact depending on the corner, the U-trace allows to have same exit, and you gain only on entry, but having a better apex speed outweights it. Also, not that to have a U-trace you have to put your foot on the throttle during max-cornering phase. Consider blow-diffuser and voila not much to look at in the V-trace.


Listening to Rob is interesting. But I think what he says is important only in special cases. Firstly, whatever the techniques are, the difference is small, and given the same car and some time to get used to it, we'd have a full grid converging to a couple of tenths. That when what he says, or any type of analysis on the subject might be useful. If you have driver not on top of his game as far as setup or tyre use, such hints might not be too important.

It's fantastic to read Ciro again
I think there's some ground between what he says and what Rob says. Before you jump at be straight than turn or any other mantra you have to learn your track as far as profile, bumps, that sort of stuff.

Yeah, and the hardest type of corner for me to master is the medium length constant radius ones. On the "corner" corners be they fast or medium I'm pretty good.

[Richard]

This video is useful for throttle v braking and carrying speed through a corner.

If only there were still documentaries with full on detail like this, nowadays we'd have some celebrity presenter taking 15 mins to explain that.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtaV_cOGgTM[/youtube]

[timbo]

This video is useful for throttle v braking and carrying speed through a corner.

Right now pretty much everyone does what Schuey did there. In fact, it seems that in modern cars that much steering imput midcorner indicates a setup/aero problem.

[gato azul]

what is interesting, and perhaps worth to point out is the speed trace through the corner, which was constant (if we take the telemetry to be real/correct).
Constant speed = no acceleration/deceleration, which when we come back to the friction cycle concept means that, as he does not use any of his "grip budget" in longitudinal direction, he can use it all in lateral direction.

as for the other point made by Timbo, let's keep in mind, that today it is quite common in F1 (and other racing series) to use variable ratio steering racks, so comparing steering angle positions from now and then or between different cars, can have his pitfalls - if we are not 100% sure about the steering ratios used etc.
One could come to "wrong" conclusions, just taking steering wheel angle as a measure/reference.
Today it is entirely possible (likely even) that two drivers of the same team, can run a different steering rack, with different ratio change/range to help their individual driving style - cater for their preferences.
It's a setup tool, just as spring dampers and ARB's these days.

[timbo]

as for the other point made by Timbo, let's keep in mind, that today it is quite common in F1 (and other racing series) to use variable ratio steering racks, so comparing steering angle positions from now and then or between different cars, can have his pitfalls - if we are not 100% sure about the steering ratios used etc.
One could come to "wrong" conclusions, just taking steering wheel angle as a measure/reference.
Today it is entirely possible (likely even) that two drivers of the same team, can run a different steering rack, with different ratio change/range to help their individual driving style - cater for their preferences.
It's a setup tool, just as spring dampers and ARB's these days.

Yes, that is true.

[raymondu999]

For the straights and long corners argument, sometimes F1 is so fast that it helps to slow things down. Check out Vettel in ROC 2011:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9h2Rz-BWBvM[/youtube]

You see that in the "chicanes" with changes of direction from left to right, Vettel (even if only for a split second) puts the wheel dead straight

[raymondu999]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKpCMWDBW6M[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5H_4mNeNew[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpVDpWI25j8[/youtube]

[radosav]

here is the article (translated from croatian language) made by Rob Wilson and send to his friend in Croatia, Mladen Jergovic, who published it on his website.http://mladenjergovic.com/lewis-i-kimi-svijet-za-sebe


Lewis and Kimi - a world unto itself

Ah, finally we were able to adjust things, and here I am in this first appearance for the website of my old friend.

First, he asked me to introduce you what i(usually) do, at least when I am not playing my guitar in London's country band. I know, I know, and Mladen doesn't think anything good about this kind of music, but I enjoy it and I have to say that we have even appeared in America. There they know something about music and such ... and don't throw beer cans.

what you want to know is not it. What you might want to know something about my way of training drivers. I'm involved in it since the mid-eighties, and systematically since 1988., When I was working with my first client, Australians David Brabhamom, which a year later was British champion in Formula 3, and then he managed to get to Formula 1

I work with drivers from all categories of auto sports, including rally, and so far I'm still on a one-on-one probably worked with about two thousands of drivers over the years. I must say that I work quite unique in the world there is no one in this way, in such conditions, addressing each (professional) driver individually.

All we need are two miles of asphalt, some plastic cones and plain rented road car, something like a Skoda Octavia and Opel Astra. I worked for many years on the track at Goodwood, but the last 15 years mainly drive the Bruntingthorpe airfield, about two hours north of London. Also, travel and training in various parts of the world, mostly in the United States and Australia.

The principle of operation is not very complicated. First, sit in the car and I give a lecture on my dynamic manipulation of mass car around corners. It takes more than two hours, and not so boring as it seems, especially for drivers who do know exactly what I mean. Then the driver gets into the passenger seat, and I'm behind the wheel. One round heated clutch and brake (yes, this should be done on an ordinary road car ...) and then I drove one quick lap, in which we measure time. Then we stop, change places and then begins the most interesting part of the training: working on the driving style of each driver.

Drivers usually do not have a particular opinion and not specially excited when I drove one a quick lap. They all have very deep into the sport and are not particularly impressed or scared. But, most of them are very surprised when later in that same car alone take a quick lap, and eventually discover that there were three or four seconds slower than me (within lap which lasts about a minute and a half ) . Of course, most of them are convinced that they made a mistake somewhere, and insist that you try again. But usually only now somewhere ahead and time is usually even slower ...

The secret is not great. Dynamic manipulation of the curves is no trick. It is more about physics and logic, and a fairly deep understanding of the way the key parts of the car, such as engine and brake, and also the ways in which physical forces act in any, even the smallest segment of each curve on the track.

The vast majority of drivers, whether it is about those still in Formula 3 or a Grand Prix driver, your skills are honed instinct. Their careers are usually so intense and dynamic that, in fact, rarely engaged in perfecting the techniques of driving. Because substantially all learned (or think they have learned) still in karting and in Formula Ford and Renault, and then adapting to each new talent and advanced category of the competition. Simply, they never stopped to address the deeper the technique of driving, at least in the aspect that I am trying to draw attention.

I worked, of course, with many F1 drivers in these almost 25 years. They are all, of course, very, very good drivers. But they are all still with me had the opportunity to fix a lot. Among other things, and also because they wanted to, they had indeed surpass my time per round! Mills is the fact that this mode is excellent: when someone comes to Formula 1 must, by default, is already considered to be a pretty good driver. Then he sees me, who does not look like Mr. Universe, and think ˝ This would be too easy. ˝ and then, clearly, there is a little landing. But also, it forces them to work on themselves and their run, and become better drivers.

Exactly half of this year's F1 grid, then twelve drivers have undergone training so far with me. Some only once or twice, some, such as Bruno Senna and Pastor Maldonado, a dozen or more times. With drivers coming constantly, like Bruno before a day or two, we are working on certain curve simulations for these races. In this particular case, we worked on the simulation curve of 90 degrees, which is one of the hallmarks of trails in Singapore. (Pastor is a very good driver, I have to say a lot faster than Bruno Senna. Course, has to work on his patience ... and coexistence with other drivers on the track. Bruno is much calmer, and perhaps more systematic. On the long run, if he had the chance, he be in Formula 1, and could have gone further ...)

two drivers came to me once, in the very beginning of his F1 career, and i said to both of them that they no longer have to come. One, Lewis Hamilton, he immediately improved my time, second, Kimi Räikkönen, drove nearly the same time and then at the end he greatly improved my time.

The two men are the drivers with the most natural talent who have worked with me in this quarter century. Their pure, raw speed, their coordination of the head and arms and legs, their reflexes and their control during cornering dynamics of car - this is something truly unique, something I'm trying to learn all the riders who come to me, and as these two have, I guess from birth. Comparison of the two? I think that Lewis by one circle of the fastest driver in the world today, though in recent times, as the older, shows that he is able to connect a lot of those rounds into a whole. Kimi is definitely the fastest race car driver in the world today.

With Kimi I worked in 2001 as soon as he came into Formula 1, and I think that, with the passage of years,he is getting better and better. The only change now is that, I think, much more mature and more thoughtful. Lotus which drives this season is a good F1 car, but apparently not so good when there is not much gasoline. From there is problems in qualifying, and from there are problems with overtaking in the final stages of the race. Overtaking Kimi understands very simple: get close to someone, look at how it is best to do, and overtake him. The fact that he wasn't good this year in the final stages of the race, is telling me that team has a problem that something is not quite processed about the car he drives.

Hamilton show how everything should be done in 2007. Now it's just faster. Of course, in the last three years the McLaren car was not worthy of his skills. Now the situation is a little better and I think he is the biggest favorite to win the championship this year. Certainly, by pure his speed it would be totally deserved. But, as you know, things are never quite simple. other factors can still get involved in the game.

I think Hamilton and Räikkönen will always be faster than anyone else in similar circumstances, that is, in the same car. So it would be wonderful to see them on the same team, but it is, I suspect, will not happen. Pity.

[radosav]

in comments beneath the article, Mladen Jergovic answered many questions.
he said that Kimi used Rob's services numerous times (how much exactly he didn't say) after joining Mclaren.
one driver on the current grid (not Kimi) , world champion x times , used Rob's services 15 times.
how many times Hamilton went to Rob he(Mladen) doesn't know .
Schumacher worked with Rob, Alonso not yet, but he is planning to visit Rob after this season, during the winter (negotiations are underway).
and most important, this is the first Rob's article in a series of many planned, where he will talk about every driver he worked with.

[raymondu999]

Great stuff mate, thanks.

I think it's given beautiful context to these videos I posted earlier:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKpCMWDBW6M[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5H_4mNeNew[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpVDpWI25j8[/youtube]

Interesting that he calls it "dynamic manipulation of mass" - it sounds like a term one might encounter in vehicle dynamics, but I think he coins a lot of phrases himself sometimes as his words and phrases such as shortening corners, flatspots etc are very unconventional in their usage.

I wonder now though - those with vehicle dynamics knowledge and qualifications, if you could quantify some of the techniques he says to use. Ie if you were to plug in numbers in a (in Rob Wilson's vernacular) shortened vs lengthened corner, how much benefit would each give?

I wonder too if he has training in at least some basic vehicle dynamics, or if he just derived his collection of best practices through sort of logical deduction and his racing experience. Theory isn't always the same as practice, I know, but I'm sure it helps, in his line of work; especially as the truth of the matter can be so counterintuitive at times. I'm not doubting - just wondering.