Run-Off Area Alternatives

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
ESPImperium
ESPImperium
64
Joined: 06 Apr 2008, 00:08
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Run-Off Area Alternatives

Post

With the Tilkedromes and other tracks having problems with drivers exploiting track limits, especially on Vettels recent misdemeanour. How should tracks run off areas be changed to offer less reward for drivers to exploit track limits and still be safe and give drivers a second bite of the cherry, however be given a penalty for exploiting track limits.

I think there should be a 1 meter wide, or ideally 2 meter wide strip of grass-crete, as i think the grass will slow the drivers down as there is less grip, and also when they put the power down, a specially designed concrete mix, or a design that rips away at the rubber compound as well if the driver puts the power down in the wrong manner.

Thus giving a penalty of around 4 to 10 seconds immediately as well as the penalty of killing your tyres as well.

The tracks are safe enough at present, all that is needed is a little tinkering in order to make drivers adhere to the white lines and have more respect for the track limits as the extended run off areas have became an accepted way to gain an extra 3 tenths or more at certain points of the tracks.

As for the extra run off areas, id probably change them to a very abrasive tarmac as well that gives a penalty for using them as well, enough to make the tyres loose a extra half a lap over a stint in degradation.

What can be done to keep the safety in the tracks, but also give a penalty to use of theese areas?

User avatar
Cam
45
Joined: 02 Mar 2012, 08:38

Re: Run-Off Area Alternatives

Post

Interesting. I think there's scope in what you're saying. Remove the timed penalty after the fact and instead have a surface that penalizes the driver if he goes in it, while remaining safe and can continue to race? Yeah, I like that. Not exactly sure how it would work but for sure worth a few boffins throwing up some concepts.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
― Socrates
Ignorance is a state of being uninformed. Ignorant describes a person in the state of being unaware
who deliberately ignores or disregards important information or facts. © all rights reserved.

Nando
Nando
2
Joined: 10 Mar 2012, 02:30

Re: Run-Off Area Alternatives

Post

2 wheels on the tarmac at all times. If you break the rule you will get a drive-through the third time.
Would solve all the problems and still keep some of the DTM style, i liked 2010 when they could really attack the infield of Hockenheim

Did not like it either when they removed the curbs at Monza.
Most definitely because of one man who completely mastered them even in pouring rain....
Last edited by Nando on 24 Jul 2012, 12:46, edited 3 times in total.
"Il Phenomeno" - The one they fear the most!

"2% of the world's population own 50% of the world's wealth."

kris
kris
0
Joined: 09 Mar 2011, 11:31

Re: Run-Off Area Alternatives

Post

Might have been a bit extreme and dangerous, but didn't the orange kerb in india last year serve a similar purpose.Masa's car went over it once and the second time he tried the same, his suspension just gave up..

User avatar
raymondu999
54
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 07:31

Re: Run-Off Area Alternatives

Post

I've talked with someone who those of you who've been here a while should remember.

Here's what he had to say:
anonymous old friend wrote:There is a solution, Tif, and you must have seen it, because you have read my very short and concise posts (oh, the good times you must have spent on them!) on circuits:

Paul Ricard abrasive stripes
Image

As everybody, including young Adam, knows, the blue abrasive stripes damage your tyres forcing you to pit, the red ones disable the tyres and put you out of the race. Both types allow you to brake and recover if heading for the barriers. I have no idea what the white ones are for.

I wouldn't call FIA accomplices, I would call them cheap. Besides, if you ask me, the track looks cool. 8)
Last edited by raymondu999 on 24 Jul 2012, 16:13, edited 1 time in total.
失败者找理由,成功者找方法

User avatar
Cam
45
Joined: 02 Mar 2012, 08:38

Re: Run-Off Area Alternatives

Post

Simply amazing. This has already be thought of and solved. It would allow drivers to be punished for mistakes, while preventing them from smashing their cars to bits on armco. Wonder if it is actually worth a serious look?
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
― Socrates
Ignorance is a state of being uninformed. Ignorant describes a person in the state of being unaware
who deliberately ignores or disregards important information or facts. © all rights reserved.

User avatar
SeijaKessen
4
Joined: 08 Jan 2012, 21:34
Location: USA

Re: Run-Off Area Alternatives

Post

Here's a nice onboard shot in a Spyker...I believe this is the layout of Paul Ricard would have used had they been able to get F1 back for 2013.

The picture in the post by raymond is Mistral into Signes...you can see how it looks on the track level to see how the abrasive strips look when actually racing.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8H4xqgEKZs[/youtube]

I do like the thought behind them, I just feel it is somewhat of an eyesore.

piast9
piast9
20
Joined: 16 Mar 2010, 00:39

Re: Run-Off Area Alternatives

Post

As far as I understand the role of abrasive strips at Paul Ricard they damage the tyres but only if driver is braking hard or locks up the brakes. Then they work like sandpaper on the tyre. If you drive normally on them they won't destroy anything so Vettel-style overtaking is still possible.

User avatar
machin
162
Joined: 25 Nov 2008, 14:45

Re: Run-Off Area Alternatives

Post

a few years back Autosport had an article suggesting a sort of "double kerb" to stop people running over them as they would upset the suspension too much.... I always thought a better solution would be a band of very low friction tarmac (Teflon coated?!) at the edge of the track so you can't put the power down unless you went right over it onto the run-off area proper (which would then incur a penalty for running outside the track limits if you gained a position as now).
COMPETITION CAR ENGINEERING -Home of VIRTUAL STOPWATCH

User avatar
raymondu999
54
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 07:31

Re: Run-Off Area Alternatives

Post

Perhaps they could do a variation of the negative vallelungas kerbing we see at Canada's/Spain's chicane? The ones they introduced into Monza in 2009.
失败者找理由,成功者找方法

Richard
Richard
Moderator
Joined: 15 Apr 2009, 14:41
Location: UK

Re: Run-Off Area Alternatives

Post

Personally I'd prefer a strip of gravel for the way it penalises a driver but they can still creep out of the back. Obviously gravel is not perfect but should safe in slow to medium speed corners.

Small kerbs to create a chicane effect in run off areas also impede run off, but tend to make cars airborne.

The clearest example was Kimi at Spa (08?) when he "ran wide" on the first corner at the start and gained 2 or 3 places. Of course he said he was avoiding an accident, but it looked awfully premeditated.

User avatar
raymondu999
54
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 07:31

Re: Run-Off Area Alternatives

Post

It wasn't just 08. Kimi often uses that runoff at T1 of Lap 1.
失败者找理由,成功者找方法

User avatar
SeijaKessen
4
Joined: 08 Jan 2012, 21:34
Location: USA

Re: Run-Off Area Alternatives

Post

richard_leeds wrote:Personally I'd prefer a strip of gravel for the way it penalises a driver but they can still creep out of the back. Obviously gravel is not perfect but should safe in slow to medium speed corners.

Small kerbs to create a chicane effect in run off areas also impede run off, but tend to make cars airborne.

The clearest example was Kimi at Spa (08?) when he "ran wide" on the first corner at the start and gained 2 or 3 places. Of course he said he was avoiding an accident, but it looked awfully premeditated.
I actually think lower/medium speed corners should all have gravel traps on the outside/inside. There's zero reason for tarmac runoff in a low speed corner.

Kerbs need to be slightly higher in corners like the hairpin at the end of the Parabolika at Hockenheim to prevent guys from going off the way Vettel did.

I do think track design across F1 needs to be readdressed quite badly. The changes made to many F1 circuits has been such you have drivers trying exploit a lot of the deficiencies that exist due to tarmac runoff, and minimal kerbs. If you give a lot of these guys an inch, much like the engineers, they will exploit these areas of the track to their maximum benefit.

bhall
bhall
244
Joined: 28 Feb 2006, 21:26

Re: Run-Off Area Alternatives

Post

Cam wrote:Simply amazing. This has already be thought of and solved. It would allow drivers to be punished for mistakes, while preventing them from smashing their cars to bits on armco. Wonder if it is actually worth a serious look?
Yas Marina Circuit
Image

thearmofbarlow
thearmofbarlow
0
Joined: 23 Feb 2012, 06:43

Re: Run-Off Area Alternatives

Post

Quite simple, really. Grass should be the only thing right next to the track. It provides just enough traction for the drivers to maintain control while punishing offs. That's in low to mid speed corners. High speed corners and corners approached under heavy braking from high speed (hairpins at end of straights, for example) should have tarmac runoff areas simply because it does provide a level of safety for both drivers and spectators. Gravel traps are good for nobody. They end races prematurely, for no good reason.