Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
Robbobnob wrote:
Hamilton has a superb talent for wrestling a car around the track. When Mclaren put together a package, he will deliver the goods. However he is not strong at setting up a car, as we have seen a few times this year, such as Spa and most recently Suzuka. In these situations Button a much more delicate and meticulous driver who works and develops his car to his liking outshines Hamilton, which is why Button is such a valuable asset to the Mclaren team. However when things get difficult or down, Hamilton becomes his worst enemy, forcing maneuvers on track which cause him to crash out, or to say something to the press etc. Its this mental instability or lack of resolve which lets Hamilton down from time to time.
Can´t say i agree with the above quote either. I remember Button struggling with setup for many races this season.
He was clueless.
When it went bad for Hamilton there was a quite clear reason for it (wing or now suspension defect)
"Il Phenomeno" - The one they fear the most!
"2% of the world's population own 50% of the world's wealth."
When I first read the OP's original question, it appeared simple and easy at first glance. But the further you dig, the murkier the picture becomes. Formula One drivers are chosen for their ability to be the first to cross the finish line first. I've known some drivers who are freaking aliens for one lap, but don't have it in them to finish a race without spinning out or crashing a few times. So they don't even get close to Formula One, and wind up somewhere else. And then there are the qualifying specialists, how come no one has mentioned Trulli? The guy somehow was able to wring out a car well beyond what was expected of it in qualifying (at times).
And although the numbers don't lie, the picture is so fluid with complications such as superior cars, setups, weather, what have you, it becomes almost subjective. Who knows, maybe Kovailenen was on average quicker than Vettel in 2011, but the difference in cars masked that.
So I'm going to fall back on the very unscientific process of anecdotal evidence, and gather snippets of quotes from those who knew, and go with that. There were drivers who just made everyone take notice, because they were so quick. When Mario Andretti was quoted as saying, “Where’s the mystery, for God’s sake? Ronnie was quicker than me, and that’s all there is about it. Yeah, I was going through qualifiers like Carter’s Little Liver Pills, but it’s no dishonour to be slower than Ronnie Peterson. People are talking about him like he’s a rookie or something, suddenly appeared from nowhere! Let’s face it, the man’s a very great racing driver.” You have to take it with a grain of salt from someone who knows.
Or when Jody Scheckter made Gilles' eulogy, he said "I will miss Gilles for two reasons. First, he was the fastest driver in the history of motor racing. Second, he was the most genuine man I have ever known. But he has not gone. The memory of what he has done, what he achieved, will always be there."
So those are the two on my list, Ronnie Peterson and Gilles Villeneuve.
Racing should be decided on the track, not the court room.
he gets faster and faster with each generation and if you want to say hes fast because donington is an example then i think this is superior
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEhPHPvXfLY[/youtube] after 3 laps
0.9 second behind the race leader and in third place after 4laps
1.8 seconds behind the leader and in third place
after 5 laps
5.8seconds in the lead after 6 laps 16 seconds in the lead
Senna at Estoril in 1985 is the greatest wet weather drive in history. He lapped every driver on the grid save for Michele Alboreto who was over a minute behind.
Donington is overrated. Senna himself said his victory at Estoril was better because he didn't have the computer assists on the 97T that the MP4/8 had.
As for this topic...it's almost impossible to name a single driver. There's too many factors at play simply because machinery plays a huge role in how fast a driver can go.
The only way you can do it is to break down F1 into certain segments.
Example: Schumacher was the fastest driver in F1 from 2000 to 2004, or Senna was the fastest driver in F1 from 1988 to 1991. When he and Schumacher had near the best, or the absolute best equipment out there, they were close to unbeatable. But, that's what great drivers have always done.
The best anyone can do is put out a name, and then make points on why they think that driver was fast. Then it can debated whether or not those points have any factual basis to support the point(s).
Anyone looking for some sort of consensus agreement on one driver is delusional because it can't, and won't ever happen.
"""Formula 1 drivers are fast if they have a good car, but the value of a good driver alone is
still not clear. The performance of drivers and cars has not yet been independently
evaluated. To achieve an effective comparison between drivers it is not sufficient to sum up
their achieved points in a season or accumulated points or wins over a certain time frame.
Points and wins depend firstly, on the number of races that the driver took part in,
secondly, on his own personal driving capabilities and thirdly, on the car as well as the
whole team.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss
Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel today are not faster than Fittipaldi, Lauda and Stewart were during the 70's. We are still waiting for blistering fast drivers like Ronnie and Gilles since Ayrton death. The young Jody was fast (and flat out).
Just Great!!
Someone or somehow stradsplace was infected with Malware and in the course of cleaning it out I lost or misplaced a sound file I had posted of Nigel Roebuck speaking on that fantastic qualifying lap by Ronnie...Does anyone remember the file and saved it that can possibly post a link so I can get it back?
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss
marcush. wrote:to me the two fastest men on earth just have to be Gilles and Ronnie of course it could not last ...but hell those two were all about speed.
I agree Marcus...
Too bad Ronnie was kept on a leash by Chapman in '78. If he had been free to slug it out with Mario, that would have been a very different season in my opinion.
Everyone points to Dijon 1979 for Gilles as being an amazing drive...which it was.
But Jarama 1981 was simply unreal. How he wrestled that ill-handling Ferrari to a win there I will never understand.
DaveKillens wrote:So I'm going to fall back on the very unscientific process of anecdotal evidence, and gather snippets of quotes from those who knew, and go with that. There were drivers who just made everyone take notice, because they were so quick. When Mario Andretti was quoted as saying, “Where’s the mystery, for God’s sake? Ronnie was quicker than me, and that’s all there is about it. Yeah, I was going through qualifiers like Carter’s Little Liver Pills, but it’s no dishonour to be slower than Ronnie Peterson. People are talking about him like he’s a rookie or something, suddenly appeared from nowhere! Let’s face it, the man’s a very great racing driver.” You have to take it with a grain of salt from someone who knows.
Or when Jody Scheckter made Gilles' eulogy, he said "I will miss Gilles for two reasons. First, he was the fastest driver in the history of motor racing. Second, he was the most genuine man I have ever known. But he has not gone. The memory of what he has done, what he achieved, will always be there."
So those are the two on my list, Ronnie Peterson and Gilles Villeneuve.
To add to that, the quote I was thinking before was actually from Stirling Moss, not Mike Hawthorn:
"Ascari was the fastest driver I ever saw. And when I say that, I include Fangio."
So I'm surprised no one else has mentioned Ascari.
Like you say though, if you're not just talking about qualifying and are instead talking about crossing the finish line first - with it the ability to be able to race every lap of the race as fast as you can - it has to be Michael.
strad wrote:Just Great!!
Someone or somehow stradsplace was infected with Malware and in the course of cleaning it out I lost or misplaced a sound file I had posted of Nigel Roebuck speaking on that fantastic qualifying lap by Ronnie...Does anyone remember the file and saved it that can possibly post a link so I can get it back?
If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari.
Senna at Estoril in 1985 is the greatest wet weather drive in history. He lapped every driver on the grid save for Michele Alboreto who was over a minute behind.
coulthard denied msc lapping every driver in spa 1998 a true drivers circuit in the wet
Senna at Estoril in 1985 is the greatest wet weather drive in history. He lapped every driver on the grid save for Michele Alboreto who was over a minute behind.
coulthard denied msc lapping every driver in spa 1998 a true drivers circuit in the wet
If I recall correctly, Micheal's best lap was 8 seconds faster than Coulthard's at that race. He was about to lap Coulthard at lap 25 of 44. So he had a shot to lap him again one more time
