Official Senna telemetry Imola 94?

[timbo]

The steering column just happens to break in a corner that requires very little driver force?

You are not correct. The higher the speed, the more the DF, the more the grip = more force required for steering.

Still didn't break the steering column.

Well, this is what you believe. But if the column was on the edge of metal fatigue the highest speed corner is the place it would most likely break.

All in all we'd never know.

[langwadt]

Still didn't break the steering column.

Well, this is what you believe. But if the column was on the edge of metal fatigue the highest speed corner is the place it would most likely break.

All in all we'd never know.

I think one of the documentaries mentions that part of the telemetry was steering input force measured on the
steering column and used by the power steering and that steering force looked normal before the crash

[Tim.Wright]

The steering column just happens to break in a corner that requires very little driver force?

You are not correct. The higher the speed, the more the DF, the more the grip = more force required for steering.

Still didn't break the steering column.

You certainly have a lot to say about this...

Regardless of what you think, I'ts been pretty well established that the steering column had significant fatigue cracking. This was verified by two independant sources during the investigation. Whether this caused the crash is up for debate.

Fatigue cracks propogating from a weld are not uncommon. Some high strength steels become brittle in the heat affected zone if its not heat treated after welding. Pictures of the column look like the break is not actually through the weld.

Also, the modification was apparently made in pre-season testing, not on the weekend of the race which is enough time for fatigue to become a factor.

[munudeges]

Nothing has been established about the steering column and I grow tired of hearing this steering breakage myth. The Renault ECU telemetry showed steering power was being applied right up until the point of impact.

When you've got a car that low on a track that had differences of fifteen centimetres in some places you're only going to have one outcome, but that was what Senna felt he needed to do to keep the Williams competitive.

[GitanesBlondes]

Nothing has been established about the steering column and I grow tired of hearing this steering breakage myth. The Renault ECU telemetry showed steering power was being applied right up until the point of impact.

When you've got a car that low on a track that had differences of fifteen centimetres in some places you're only going to have one outcome, but that was what Senna felt he needed to do to keep the Williams competitive.

Bingo, there is zero proof the steering column snapped prior to the car hitting the wall.

There was nothing but conjecture on the part of the so-called "experts" that testified in the Italian court. It was a highly biased case that was focused on assigning blame to something, or someone. The outcome reached should never have been of any surprise to anyone.

The ride height has always been the elephant in the room that no one wants to address. Those in F1 know the steering column thing was a load of crap, but very few have ever stated their belief of it. The minimum ride height establishment wasn't pulled out of thin air for no reason.

[Webber2011]

Hey guys, glad you got me thinking of the old video
My mate has had it since we met up at the Melboune GP this year and I wasn't really that worried about getting it until we see each other next, which probably would have been next years Aus GP.
I live in Sydney and he's in Melbourne.
So I called him last night and he's put it to the top of his to do list.
Should have it within a week

[MadMatt]

I would like the opinion of those who think the steering column did not break on this video:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6Wwx22mzMU[/youtube]

You can clearly see that the column breaks progressively, and fails right at the point when the car starts to go straight. How would the car go THAT straight other than with a broken steering. You can clearly see the wheel angle going from normal to "straight" when looking at onboard videos.

[aral]

Oh come on! Don't resurrect the past. There is absolutely nothing in that clip that could be taken in context with the accident. I am sure that more experienced investigators have analised every frame of the onboard video, and have already issued their findings. Let the poor guy RIP. Nothing to be gained from "new" speculation

[GitanesBlondes]

I would like the opinion of those who think the steering column did not break on this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6Wwx22mzMU

You can clearly see that the column breaks progressively, and fails right at the point when the car starts to go straight. How would the car go THAT straight other than with a broken steering. You can clearly see the wheel angle going from normal to "straight" when looking at onboard videos.

It doesn't prove anything.

The steering wheel moved quite a bit in the FW-16. Sure it might not look normal compared to other cars, but it was most assuredly normal for that car no matter how unsettling it looked.

Ride height was everything.

[Tim.Wright]

It doesn't prove anything.

The steering wheel moved quite a bit in the FW-16. Sure it might not look normal compared to other cars, but it was most assuredly normal for that car no matter how unsettling it looked.

Ride height was everything.

Just wondering if you actually have any technical reasoning to backup your claim. Because you are doing a lot of talking but not really saying anything with any substance.

The way I see it is there is evidence supporting both theories. I think there is a good possibility that the ride height caused a snap oversteer, and when I watch the onboard I sense a momentary increase in yawrate (noticed by looking at the trajectory of track boundary) just before the video cuts out. Its also clear the car is heavily bottoming out on the previous lap.

At the same time, the external video shows the car leaving the track going practically straight, no tyre smoke, no detectable change in yaw angle. This suggests the steering failed. Additional to that, my opinion on the video with Coulthard demonstrating the flex in the steering column is that its complete BS. No column on a racecar will ever flex that much. Certainly no car I have worked with flexed like that. Steering compliance of any type is a massive no no in a racecar design and its actually quite easy to design out lateral flex like that.

So yea, that's my reasoning. I'm all ears to hear your logic.

T

[GitanesBlondes]

Tim,

An ex-F1 mechanic mentioned that the accepted theory behind closed doors is that it was due to Senna wanting the ride height as close to the ground as he could get it. It isn't widely talked about due to no one wanting to upset the myth that has come out of May 1, 1994. A steering column failure sounds better than a driver who was known for his legendary technical prowess, making a colossal error of judgment with regards to the car setup, doesn't it? Running to close to the ground and getting that surfboard effect is entirely consistent with what happened when the FW-16 went off the track.

Don't forget, that weekend, he was complaining about the car understeering and oversteering on the same lap...so one should stay aware that the FW-16 was capable of showing different characteristics on two different corners, on the same lap.

And again...yes the FW-16's steering wheel moved around quite a bit. I said to not base it on any experiences one has with other race cars as it wasn't like any other race car, let alone F1 car for that matter. All telemetry showed the steering had no issue up till the moment of impact. Anyone claiming the steering was somehow not working continues to attempt to ignore this. Everyone is free to continue pretending that the steering column failed before the impact with the wall, but doing so does not alter the fact that there was no issue.

Funny thing...when they were talking about race strategy prior to the race, Senna told Damon Hill to take an outside line through the Tamburello due to the track surface being extremely problematic in the corner's apex.

Just something for you guys to think about.

[Tim.Wright]

And again...yes the FW-16's steering wheel moved around quite a bit. I said to not base it on any experiences one has with other race cars as it wasn't like any other race car, let alone F1 car for that matter. All telemetry showed the steering had no issue up till the moment of impact.

You can't just dismiss the steering compliance of other cars just because it doesn't fit your theory. If anyone can show me a leading F1 car from that period which had that much lateral compliance in the column I will personally buy them a carton of any beer they want. It simply doesn't happen.

I'm interested to know where you are sourcing all this info from as well. As far as I know, there is no vehicle data which runs right up until the moment of impact. So on that point you are either making it up, or have a bad source. Also, what data suggests the steering is ok? Angle? torque? Have you seen this data or are you just repeating what you've heard somewhere?

[GitanesBlondes]

+1 Tim, GB how are you still ignoring the fact that the front wheels quite clearly straighten up even though the steering wheel is still turned left?

How are you ignoring the fact that the chassis bottomed out tremendously before he went right off the track?

The car was also bottoming out throughout various parts of lap 6, which is largely ignored.

By the way this is a quote from Adrian Newey...

“If you look at the camera shots, especially from Michael Schumacher’s following car, the car didn’t understeer off the track. It oversteered which is not consistent with a steering column failure. The rear of the car stepped out and all the data suggests that happened. Ayrton then corrected that by going to 50% throttle which would be consistent with trying to reduce the rear stepping out and then, half-a-second later, he went hard on the brakes. The question then is why did the rear step out? The car bottomed much harder on that second lap which again appears to be unusual because the tyre pressure should have come up by then – which leaves you expecting that the right rear tyre probably picked up a puncture from debris on the track. If I was pushed into picking out a single most likely cause that would be it.”

Keep telling yourself it was a steering column failure.

[GitanesBlondes]

How are you ignoring the fact that the chassis bottomed out tremendously before he went right off the track?

I'm not ignoring that myself, I very much believe that the car was bottoming out and it clearly oversteers for a quick moment before Senna heads off track. To me all of that is less important than the fact that the front tires stop turning left even though Senna is applying steering lock, it's clear in the video that this happens.

Read what Newey said.

And also consider where Senna was in the corner, as well as the line he was taking.

Further, consider the effect of the underside of the chassis dragging on the ground and the effect it has on steering.

[notApineapple]

Read what Newey said.

Forget what Newey said.
He was on manslaughter charges based on the accusation that the steering column broke. Of course he is going to have another theory.

And also consider where Senna was in the corner, as well as the line he was taking.

Looks all pretty normal to me.

Further, consider the effect of the underside of the chassis dragging on the ground and the effect it has on steering.

Didn't seem to trouble him on the lap before.