Formula One fatalities.

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
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GitanesBlondes
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Re: Formula One fatalities.

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xpensive wrote:It was the beginning of a new age, though very few understood it at the time.

Nigel Roebuck after the 1981 British GP, which Watson won in John's MP4-1;

"Imagine the McLaren chassis with Ferrari's engine."

The 1982 Ferrari 126, which killed Gilles and ended Pironi's F1 career, was still an Aluminium-tub.
It brings up an interesting thing to consider, in my opinion anyway xpensive.

I would posit that the most important part of the equation as it pertains to safety in F1 --even motorsports in general-- is car design. The thing that always stood out to me in the case of many fatal F1 accidents was how the front end, or the chassis itself could not hold up to the impact with the object was the car hit.

The three most important advances was in my opinion the carbon fiber monocoque (1981) fuel tank advances, and self-sealing fuel couplings (1974).

On the track side, having adequate barrier protection from whatever lay beyond the race circuit, and tire barriers. The tarmac runoff that has become more frequent, was nothing more than overkill as usually happens.

Before someone runs in and says that Gitanes is a real heartless bastard, what I would say is so long as the risks are known beforehand to the drivers, that is all that matters. I believe in informed risk. Taking up the mantle that Mosley took up in claiming the drivers needed to be protected from themselves was the exact sort of nannying that took away a lot of the thrill from racing over the years. We went from viewing drivers as being akin to the knights of Arthurian legend, who donned their helmets and went into battle in their cars, to seeing them as an extension of glorified celebrity culture. There are no heroes left in F1 because they do not do anything heroic any longer. They can't because the sport changed in such a way that all of the things that made drivers heroic, from the danger, to the summoning of skill to provide a gallant charge to the front in overmatched machinery.

Take Monaco 2013, you had nothing more than a train circling for 70 laps. There's nothing that will ever allow us to see a replay of Gilles Villeneuve wrestling the abysmally-handling 126CK around Monaco to stay within striking distance of Alan Jones...and then when Jones suffered a fuel flow problem, he still had to fight to get past and overtook on the inside in front of the pitwall before St. Devote. The roar of the Monaco crowd when they saw Gilles in the lead is something you will never see in today's F1.

I have to laugh because everyone wants an exciting F1, but unfortunately part of the way you get an exciting F1 is to have spectre of death flitting about while guys are on the absolute limit. It adds to the appreciation of what these guys out on track are doing.

Do you think it's any mistake as to why all the F1 documentaries of the past few years have focused on the more gruesome years of F1? It's more compelling TV. Watching guys circling around a super safe track in the middle of the desert with no real risk involved is not compelling TV. You cannot get everything without sacrificing something.

Sorry for the slight divergence from the technical aspect xpensive.
"I don't want to make friends with anybody. I don't give a sh*t for fame. I just want to win." -Nelson Piquet

xpensive
xpensive
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Re: Formula One fatalities.

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I would have loved to respond to this in a constructive fashion TC, but in all honesty, your post is a tad confusing.

I still believe that the new Carbon-monocoques of the 80s were quite superior in terms of impact vs the Alu-such.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

meves
meves
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Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 12:01

Re: Formula One fatalities.

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Looking at the 60's, 70's and 80's incidents it noticeable how much not only strengthening the monocoques has improved safety but also moving the drivers feet behind the front axis and improving the front crash structure. How many of these incidents have the occupants legs left dangling out he front of the car with drivers being killed by either head injuries or just massive trauma but even if the head injuries were survivable the other injuries weren't.

Does anyone know why the FIA didn't start mandatory testing of seatbelts until 1991. I would have thought looking at accidents like the Jochen Rindt incident that steering wheel impact was a factor and I know that changes were slow coming but 1991 seems very late for that inclusion.

They were amazing days but terribly sad, we have to remember the impact that individuals like Sid Watkins had to the sport. I'll always remember the Piquet incident

"Prof had ignored Nelson Piquet’s blandishments in 1987 after a huge accident at Imola, and refused to let him race, that his full authority became established.

Piquet had crashed backwards into the infamous wall at Tamburello following a tyre failure, and been badly knocked about. But he’d discharged himself from hospital and turned up ready to race. “I said that wasn’t possible because he’d had a head injury and he might have some brain damage. He said that he hadn’t, whereupon I said, ‘Well why have you left your shoe off?’ He was only wearing one. He said that his foot was painful and swollen so he’d let it off.

“I said: ‘Brain damage, foot damage, it doesn’t make any difference. You’re not fit to drive.’ He cried on my shoulder, begged and screamed, but I said to Bernie: ‘If Nelson gets into a car, I’m leaving this circuit.’”

Years later, Piquet admitted that he didn’t feel right until the end of the season."

xDama
xDama
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Re: Formula One fatalities.

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meves wrote:Piquet had crashed backwards into the infamous wall at Tamburello following a tyre failure, and been badly knocked about. But he’d discharged himself from hospital and turned up ready to race. “I said that wasn’t possible because he’d had a head injury and he might have some brain damage. He said that he hadn’t, whereupon I said, ‘Well why have you left your shoe off?’ He was only wearing one. He said that his foot was painful and swollen so he’d let it off.

“I said: ‘Brain damage, foot damage, it doesn’t make any difference. You’re not fit to drive.’ He cried on my shoulder, begged and screamed, but I said to Bernie: ‘If Nelson gets into a car, I’m leaving this circuit.’”

Years later, Piquet admitted that he didn’t feel right until the end of the season."
Adding to that:
Piquet said the crash affected him more badly than he admitted at the time: “I was no good anymore. I lost a lost of deepness in my view. I could not tell because if I tell people take me out of the [car]. And I was driving behind all the time.”

He kept quiet about his injuries through the season and won the championship when Mansell was injured in a crash at the penultimate race: “I talk at the end of the year,” said Piquet.

“Every two weeks I was going to the hospital in Milan. And I was improving, improving but in the first months I lost more than 80% of deepness. I have to look at the numberplate to brake. I was very good to drive behind somebody but I could not drive in front! And that was ’87.”

“But I ’86 was, like I said, I think if everything was good I should win ’86 and Nigel should win ’87.”

Piquet admitted he felt he never fully recovered from the crash, despite remaining in F1 until 1991. “It finished motor racing for me. I went for the money afterwards.”
"I race to win, and if you no longer go for a gap that exists, you're no longer a racing driver." - Ayrton Senna

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GitanesBlondes
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Re: Formula One fatalities.

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xpensive wrote:I would have loved to respond to this in a constructive fashion TC, but in all honesty, your post is a tad confusing.

I still believe that the new Carbon-monocoques of the 80s were quite superior in terms of impact vs the Alu-such.
Even though there were still issues with legs being exposed in frontal crashes, there were numerous crashes throughout the remainder of the 1980s after the 1982 horror show,that a decade earlier would have seen most of the drivers killed in the same accidents.

de Cesaris at the Osterreichring in the Ligier comes to mind. Then again I suppose had he had the misfortune of being born 10 years before he was, he would have been dead. The massive shunt Piquet had at Monaco because of Patrese in '85 would have been a guaranteed fire in 1975 in my opinion. Jacques Lafitte at Brands Hatch 1986 would have been more along the lines of Monza '78...and his career was still ended. Nelson at Imola in '87 would have likely been a fatal accident if he had that crash in 1981.
"I don't want to make friends with anybody. I don't give a sh*t for fame. I just want to win." -Nelson Piquet

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GitanesBlondes
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Re: Formula One fatalities.

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xDama wrote:
meves wrote:Piquet had crashed backwards into the infamous wall at Tamburello following a tyre failure, and been badly knocked about. But he’d discharged himself from hospital and turned up ready to race. “I said that wasn’t possible because he’d had a head injury and he might have some brain damage. He said that he hadn’t, whereupon I said, ‘Well why have you left your shoe off?’ He was only wearing one. He said that his foot was painful and swollen so he’d let it off.

“I said: ‘Brain damage, foot damage, it doesn’t make any difference. You’re not fit to drive.’ He cried on my shoulder, begged and screamed, but I said to Bernie: ‘If Nelson gets into a car, I’m leaving this circuit.’”

Years later, Piquet admitted that he didn’t feel right until the end of the season."
Adding to that:
Piquet said the crash affected him more badly than he admitted at the time: “I was no good anymore. I lost a lost of deepness in my view. I could not tell because if I tell people take me out of the [car]. And I was driving behind all the time.”

He kept quiet about his injuries through the season and won the championship when Mansell was injured in a crash at the penultimate race: “I talk at the end of the year,” said Piquet.

“Every two weeks I was going to the hospital in Milan. And I was improving, improving but in the first months I lost more than 80% of deepness. I have to look at the numberplate to brake. I was very good to drive behind somebody but I could not drive in front! And that was ’87.”

“But I ’86 was, like I said, I think if everything was good I should win ’86 and Nigel should win ’87.”

Piquet admitted he felt he never fully recovered from the crash, despite remaining in F1 until 1991. “It finished motor racing for me. I went for the money afterwards.”
The thing I've always wondered though about his comments of not fully recovering is that he's made numerous claims he drove differently --almost driving scared to a degree-- yet he had no qualms about going to Indianapolis with no oval racing experience. Indianapolis was a terrifying place to race at in 1992. Jovy Marcello was killed during practice, and Nelson was lucky to survive his crash. Top qualifying speeds were around 229-230MPH...and that was with concrete walls.
"I don't want to make friends with anybody. I don't give a sh*t for fame. I just want to win." -Nelson Piquet

xpensive
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Re: Formula One fatalities.

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A bad and most unnecessary end to a great career, I read that people were worried early on over his attacking style at Indy;

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But that was Nelson, the speed-king of his time, afraid of nothing.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

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GitanesBlondes
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Re: Formula One fatalities.

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It wasn't the absolute end though as he did qualify and race Indy in 1993. In his favor, most guys would not have bothered to even try again after suffering two massive crashes in 5 years.

Another picture of the impact in 1992. Absolutely terrifying.

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"I don't want to make friends with anybody. I don't give a sh*t for fame. I just want to win." -Nelson Piquet

timbo
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Re: Formula One fatalities.

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Shows well that Indycars of early 90s were superior safety-wise to F1 cars. The cockpit protection was much better.

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GitanesBlondes
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Re: Formula One fatalities.

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timbo wrote:Shows well that Indycars of early 90s were superior safety-wise to F1 cars. The cockpit protection was much better.
I don't really see how one can say that as far more drivers were being killed in CART than F1 throughout the whole decade.
"I don't want to make friends with anybody. I don't give a sh*t for fame. I just want to win." -Nelson Piquet

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GitanesBlondes
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Re: Formula One fatalities.

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Paul Ricard Circuit May 1986, Elio de Angelis was killed while testing the Brabham BT55. The rear wing detached resulting in a loss of downforce that ultimately pitched the car over the armco barriers. Elio was unable to extract himself from the Brabham, and the safety crews took too long to show up in order to help him. He was airlifted to the hospital where he died a day later on May 15 from smoke inhalation. Elio was the last of the gentlemen racers, and an underrated driver who could very well have been a world champion in better circumstances with the right team. He was the last driver to win a grand prix for Colin Chapman in the epic duel at the Osterreichring in 1982 against Keke Rosberg.

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"I don't want to make friends with anybody. I don't give a sh*t for fame. I just want to win." -Nelson Piquet

timbo
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Re: Formula One fatalities.

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GitanesBlondes wrote:
timbo wrote:Shows well that Indycars of early 90s were superior safety-wise to F1 cars. The cockpit protection was much better.
I don't really see how one can say that as far more drivers were being killed in CART than F1 throughout the whole decade.
The nature of speedway circuits makes most crashes much more violent than what is possible in F1.

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GitanesBlondes
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Re: Formula One fatalities.

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Definitely. In any event, car improvements had far more to do with saving drivers than any other area of improvement. HANS devices were also essential to driver well-being. Tarmac runoff was an outgrowth of the usual knee-jerk reactions.
"I don't want to make friends with anybody. I don't give a sh*t for fame. I just want to win." -Nelson Piquet

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Morteza
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Re: Formula One fatalities.

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I have to admit that I really like this thread. Now I know things I didn't know before. They may be sad, but they are part of F1 history. A big thanks to X and GitanesBlondes.
"A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool."~William Shakespeare

xpensive
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Re: Formula One fatalities.

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Thanks Morteza, we do what we can. In 1989, Phillippe Streiff somehow survived this wreck of an AGS at Rio;

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It left him paralyzed from the waist down however.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"