2007 Lexus LS 460

[f1.redbaron]

I've always said that Toyota's designers are very conservative. The cars they build, for the most part, are in fact boring - maybe even ugly. But the fact that they are one of the richest companies in the world, and are leaders in the automotive sector, shows that they must be doing something right. Car enthusiasts such as yourself are a dying breed (no offence). No longer will you find that many people looking to buy those 5.0L Mustangs or 6.0L Camaros (apparently, Camaro is coming back - I just hope GM hasn't pinned all of their hopes on that model). Why? Simply put, no one can afford $50-60/week on gas. Enter Toyota.

Toyota was able to recognize that. Shortly after that first oil crisis, they realized that that was just the beginning, and more of it was to come. So they've decided to make, as I'd already mentioned it, smaller models. Models that will run - figuratively speaking - forever!

Do they have that charisma you were talking about? No! But the consumers don't care. All they care about is that this product will last and will give them a higher re-sale value than that of their N. American or European competitors.

One thing that you need to keep in mind when talking about Toyota is the fact that they had never started as a car company. Believer it or not, Toyota was, originally, a loom factory. Later on, they switched to making cars. And they did that by reverse-engineering both the car and the manufacturing process. They saw the production system used in one of the Ford's plants, used their example to come up with their own (what is now called TPS - Toyota Production System). Much the same was done with one of the Ford's most successful model at that time (I can't remember anything about it except that it was from 1934?). They decided to build a better version of that car.

The bottom line is that their ability to build a suprior product paid off in the end when the consumer decided to switch from the big boats to small, economical cars. Maybe they lack charisma, but the average consumer will tell you that he's happy with the product he had bought.

And what about BMW? Well, simply put, they sold out. A company that used to make the cars only for the elite is now making cars that compete with Toyota Yaris. Moreover, in 2009 we shoud see their first minivan. A MINIVAN!!! From a BMW? What kind of a soccer mom needs a BMW minivan? Talk about the ultimate sell-out. Add that to the fact that they're selling almost a million units/year and you realize that their initial belief in selling of the superior product had gone right out the window, just for the sake of gaining a bigger market share in hopes of making bigger profit (just like those "charisma-less" Toyotas).

Should TMC focus on making off-road vehicles? NO! They're doing just fine they way they are. Is the Landcruiser a good off-road vehicle? Maybe, I don't know. I've never taken it off-road. But neither will your average consumer. It is much too expensive for that. And Puch is a bad example of an off-road vehicle, simply because they're mainly a military vehicle designed for the harsh conditions.

I believe I've bored you enough, so I'll stop.

Cheers.

[terrorist22]

Buying a Toyota (or Acura, for that matter) also means in the U.S. that you are just buying a car. I sure as hell am not passionate about Japanese cars, but as a daily driver, they are the best in the world. I'm sure most Americans aren't passionate about Japanese cars either; however, in Southern California, the rice rocket scene loves them. The majority of Japanese car drivers buy cars that last forever, are cheaper, and are lower maintenance than most of the cars out there.

Examples such as the Toyota Camry, Honda Civic, and Toyota Prius show that the company can build cars that people want. Although boring, people will buy them and sell them satisfied because they got the job done really well. And now with Scion, Toyota is making a car that will appeal to younger customers, without that Toyota "maturity" but with the reliability. They may not be fast, but they really stand out among people in SoCal.

Mercedes is flooding the market with almost every kind of car they can think of. The R-Class IMO is a car that nobody asked a question for. G-Class? Better kept as a military vehicle. The C-class hatch was probably their lamest product in years.

The fact that there's an AMG for every type of vehicle just lessens the exclusitivity of any Mercedes product. I thought that was what Mercedes was all about; now everybody and their mother has a Mercedes. It's only really cool to own a Benz if you live in the middle of nowhere. At my Mini Baja competition in Arizona, there were no German cars at all in Tucson.

Finally, for the price you pay for any of them, you'd think the engineering would reflect it. They have some of the industry's worst reliability and quality materials. The former is sometimes compared to that of a Korean car, but sadly even Korean cars are improving bigtime.

BMW is better than Mercedes, but their designs are not for everybody. Having test driven a E90 330i, the black interior was extremely ugly and looked like something that would fit at home in an unfurnished Honda Accord. Yet I would have to pay maybe twice as much for the BMW. Again, the quality of the build and materials don't reflect the price of the car. Somewhat, that complaint is watered down by the fact that the car is extremely smooth and capable.

In the end, I don't love Lexus or Toyota for creating banal products, but their reliability and build quality and price are the best in the business. As a college student fresh out of college, I need something that gets my commute done. BMW and Mercedes are for people who are loaded and have money to throw away. My mom gave me her car 2005 Lexus RX330; although there's no way I can corner it like a sedan, it gets me places. It gets there without any problems, and has all the amenities I need. The best part is that my girlfriends love it, especially when we go out to a club. So there goes that idea of having a chick magnet.

P.S. I thought Porsche was the ultimate sellout. Now Maserati is contemplating an SUV.

[dumrick]

Just a small statement: although I understand (as well as Manchild, I believe) your reasoning in what concerns quality, f1.redbaron's argument concerning fuel eficiency is only valid comparing with american car manufacturers. In Europe, we are (thankfully) well used to have that in mind in the purchase of a car and most of our constructors manufacture reasonably efficient vehicles, since petroleum (and energy in general) was never as subsidized as in the USA, hence our lesser energy waste levels.

I also believe that we are having something of a "cultural clash" here in what concerns the appeal of Toyotas / Lexuses, and devotion to cars, in general. It's fairly normal as we live in somewhat different cultural environments. Toyota's sales in most european countries are, in fact, no threat to our manufacturers, even with a specific product range for our markets. That goes to show that our position isn't that unique, but reflects diverse cultural backgrounds and ways of thinking.

[terrorist22]

It's funny how you guys in Europe may not pay a big deal to Japanese cars, relative to the United States. I say this because you get the most advanced Mitsubishi Lancer Evo there (from Ralliart I think). That would also go for the R34 Skyline and I think a more advanced version of the Subaru STI, a Spec A or C or something.

[Spencifer_Murphy]

lol, I think the cars you just mentioned are the Only Japanese cars people buy here with their heart. the Lancer, Skyline & Impreza are fantastic pieces of engineering.

[f1.redbaron]

Just a small statement: although I understand (as well as Manchild, I believe) your reasoning in what concerns quality, f1.redbaron's argument concerning fuel eficiency is only valid comparing with american car manufacturers. In Europe, we are (thankfully) well used to have that in mind in the purchase of a car and most of our constructors manufacture reasonably efficient vehicles, since petroleum (and energy in general) was never as subsidized as in the USA, hence our lesser energy waste levels.

I was simply trying to explain how the Japanese cars, desipte their looks, still manage to out-sell their N. American competitors.

Also, I wouldn't be so sure that Toyota is not a threat to European car-makers in Europe. They are constantly gaining the market share in Europe. Don't tell me that all of those Toyota plants that are popping up are for no reason. Don't tell me that the introduction of a third shift at the plant in GB (I believe it's GB), is because the demand for them is not there.

15 years ago, nobody saw Toyota beating GM either - look at them now...


Interestingly enough, terrorist22 made a point I was going to mention in my previous post, but I decided not to just to keep the reply as short as possible. Believe it or not, Toyota is not worried about GM, Ford, Nissan, Honda, etc. Yeah, they are a competition, but Toyota can handle them. However, they are terrified of Hyndai. Hyndai is going all out to get back in the game. Their reputation for building s*it cars will soon go out the window. Over the past couple of years their quality has improved by leaps and bounds. Warranty on those vehicles (although limited) is better than any warranty offered by any car-manufacturer - yes, even Lexus, BMW, Mercedes, etc. Their new production facilities are state-of-the-art and they have been implementing Toyota's Production System. Give them 5-10 years and they will be giving Toyota a headache.

[ginsu]

The next car was a BMW 330i, but every spoiled kid has one where I live (Southern California), so it'd be like owning a Civic in Japan.

Or like owning a BMW in Germany.