Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team 2014

[AnthonyG]

Does the engine even have a revlimiter? Since theu only run it at 12.000 while 15.000 is allowed.

[beelsebob]

Does the engine even have a revlimiter? Since theu only run it at 12.000 while 15.000 is allowed.

It does have a rev limiter, but as you point out, it's typically a very long way away from where they're reving to.

[Juzh]

It was on downshift, and that happens on occasion. Imo the only logical explanation is he downshifted too aggressively and hit rev-limiter which instantly locked rear tires.

It wasn't on downshift, no, it was on the initial application of the brakes.

Was on downshift. Check again his onboard.

[Phil]

Is it even possible to over-rev the engine? I would think any shifting during the race is done electronically. Also, the gearing would be quite short in a f1 car, so unless he shifts down at very high revs already, i'm not sure how he could buzz the engine in a way that would cause such a long lock up. Maybe if he shifted down twice by mistake, but again i wonder if this is even possible or if there is some fail-safe that avoids this?

[smlbstcbr]

He made a mistake. End of story. Unless people start jumping around screaming "Cheat!" the same way they did with Rosberg's mistake in Monaco.

[Gaz.]

Is it even possible to over-rev the engine? I would think any shifting during the race is done electronically. Also, the gearing would be quite short in a f1 car, so unless he shifts down at very high revs already, i'm not sure how he could buzz the engine in a way that would cause such a long lock up. Maybe if he shifted down twice by mistake, but again i wonder if this is even possible or if there is some fail-safe that avoids this?

The drivers have said before that you can pre-select a downshift but it won't happen until the engine is below a certain point in the rev range.

I've seen fluffed downshifts lock up rear wheels in modified RV8 TVR's running high compression ratios but that was a result of too low revs locking the wheels of a car with no downforce on road tyres at low speed - it's pretty much the exact opposite situation. I've also heard of someone buzzing the engine of a 996TT by downshifting to 3rd instead of 5th but instead of the tyres locking, the camchain snapped and the engine turned itself into scrap.

iirc Vettel had a similar spin in Bahrain winter testing.

[Juzh]

Vettels spin in bahrain was because of braking failure, not driver error.

[adrianjordan]

Vettels spin in bahrain was because of braking failure, not driver error.

Exactly...which is why that was brought up...to support Hamilton's spin also being due to brake failure.

Seriously guys, Coulthard said in the coverage that it's almost impossible to lock the rears without also locking the fronts if it's driver error...and the fronts were moving freely...and if it was driver error, why wouldn't he have released the pedal and just run a little wide?

[basti313]

Vettels spin in bahrain was because of braking failure, not driver error.

Exactly...which is why that was brought up...to support Hamilton's spin also being due to brake failure.

Seriously guys, Coulthard said in the coverage that it's almost impossible to lock the rears without also locking the fronts if it's driver error...and the fronts were moving freely...and if it was driver error, why wouldn't he have released the pedal and just run a little wide?

No. Front brakes not on temperature, rear tires not on temp, break bias accidentally wrong, break bias more aggressive on purpose...
There are many ways to lock up the rears like that. As they did not repair the car in parc ferme, there was no defect.

[adrianjordan]

Vettels spin in bahrain was because of braking failure, not driver error.

Exactly...which is why that was brought up...to support Hamilton's spin also being due to brake failure.

Seriously guys, Coulthard said in the coverage that it's almost impossible to lock the rears without also locking the fronts if it's driver error...and the fronts were moving freely...and if it was driver error, why wouldn't he have released the pedal and just run a little wide?

No. Front brakes not on temperature, rear tires not on temp, break bias accidentally wrong, break bias more aggressive on purpose...
There are many ways to lock up the rears like that. As they did not repair the car in parc ferme, there was no defect.

I find it more probable that there was a software glitch that caused the rears to lock under energy harvesting and could be easily reset in parc ferme or even by the driver in the cockpit than that they sent Hamilton out with the wrong brake bias, brakes not up to temp AND tyres not up to temp...these guys are professionals you know.

[slimfitcasual]

Red Bull BURN.

[Cam]

No mention of Hamilton and his great 2nd place finish from 9th on the grid? That's going to set the fan boys off.

Edit: nice burn too.

[Phil]

The drivers have said before that you can pre-select a downshift but it won't happen until the engine is below a certain point in the rev range.

I've seen fluffed downshifts lock up rear wheels in modified RV8 TVR's running high compression ratios but that was a result of too low revs locking the wheels of a car with no downforce on road tyres at low speed - it's pretty much the exact opposite situation. I've also heard of someone buzzing the engine of a 996TT by downshifting to 3rd instead of 5th but instead of the tyres locking, the camchain snapped and the engine turned itself into scrap.

iirc Vettel had a similar spin in Bahrain winter testing.

Thanks. That's exactly what my assumption had been to. You actually don't have to go very far to see fluffed downshifts and locked rear wheels... A couple of years back, I nearly crashed a Lotus by downshifting agressively ahead of a corner and let the clutch slip which caused an instant lockup of the rears. I was still naive to any concept of heel & toe shifting back then. Also, a fellow mate who owned the same car experienced an engine failure by selecting 1st gear instead of 3rd on the race track and buzzed te engine. Go figure... (and don't asked how hard he must have forced the gear into position to actually get it in there). Anyway, that's all with a mechanical driver controlled clutch and gearbox.

Shifting with paddleshift where the clutch is controlled electronically, automatically matches revs on downshifts and failsaves when revs are too low or high, this shouldn't happen.


I do have an idea how the lock up might have occured though:

Various reports suggest that the Austrian track was quite bumpy. Following the season so far and how the Mercedes (as others, I'm sure) agressively harvest energy on the rears, they might still be running quite a rear-ward (relatively speaking) brake-bias - or pretty close to the limit where under more extreme braking conditions, the fronts may lock up just ahead of the rears.

During qualifying, the car is at its lightest with arguably the highest engine setting, so you will also have the highest stopping power during that session (compared to the race). Imagine coming over a bump at these speeds, while under braking when the entire weight of the car shifts to the front and there's less friction on the rears. Running a (relatively speaking again) rear-ward brake-bias and this could be enough to lock the rears ahead of the fronts enough to cause a loss of control. Especially if you're on corner entry at the same time and the lock-ups of the rears will cause the whole car to spin (if the fronts were locked too, the car would just slide forward)

If this is the case, I don't think the driver is much at fault - just an unfortunate chain of events magnified by a bump and the strong harvesting of energy on the rears (that results in quite a bit of braking force at the rears). Also, would not be really reproducable during the race, since the cars are running quite a lot heavier, so less chance of locking the rears than when using a significantly lighter and quicker car as is the case in qualifying.

Just my 2 cents.

[WaikeCU]

Still think the team won't let them race until they have secured the Constructors Championship. The team only thinks of that while the drivers are more biased towards the WDC. As soon they have sealed the Constructors Championship, I wonder if they still will share data and if they then unleash their drivers and let them do what they want in terms of engine settings, etc. But then, will it not be too late? For the team it's a Win-Win situation anyway.

[De Jokke]

How many more races to seal the deal (wcc)? 5-7 ?