Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[Sayeman]

Nobody asked ALO why he had that burst of power to pass Hulk but he just seem to loose power after that and never showed the power again. I thought he lost electrical boost but his lap times were similar to Van's. Maybe he just had to go into fuel save mode ?

Yes, it was quite strange to see how he passed Hulkenberg, and after this he was helpless against the same Hulkenberg and the rest. That's why I think that they have power but not energy. Fuel saving.

i thought teams saved fuels when cars were running alone in the middle of the race? Why would they go into fuel saving mode in the second lap when everyone is bunched up and has DRS?

[ZakB]

One lesson learned: Monza is going to be painful.

[etusch]

Honda’s Yusuke Hasegawa says that the engine supplier could see ‘nothing in the data’ to indicate there was a problem with Fernando Alonso’s McLaren prior to his retirement.

After dropping gradually through the field during the Belgian Grand Prix, Alonso retired from the race on lap 26, complaining of an engine problem on his car.

Despite Alonso’s claims, Hasegawa says the decision was made to pull Alonso out of the race even though there was no indication of any problems in the team’s data.

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2017/08/27/n ... say-honda/

[Redragon]

It's probably the livery.


By the way Honda confirmed that after Fernando's radio message they asked him to retire the car but they didn't see anything on the sensor.

Aperently Alonso has made a agreement whit Carlos Ghosn....works status Renault engine for Mclaren in 2018 and switch to Renault Sport F1 to end his career in 2019.

For that to happen Renault has to brake contract with one of the teams are supplying, probably Toro Rosso and they are not gonna do it. So Renault deal is more and more away.

Mercedes sign still open as they haven't renewed Bottas, why are they waiting? Next week is September already when Alo will decide his future. I wouldn't be surprise they had a precontract on Christmas. Alo was the first one to be called rumours were saying, so why Mercedes would be interested on last Chistmas and not now? Also Lauda critisizing his salary etc... a kind of indirect message to drop the salary.

[ZakB]

It's probably the livery.


By the way Honda confirmed that after Fernando's radio message they asked him to retire the car but they didn't see anything on the sensor.

Aperently Alonso has made a agreement whit Carlos Ghosn....works status Renault engine for Mclaren in 2018 and switch to Renault Sport F1 to end his career in 2019.

For that to happen Renault has to brake contract with one of the teams are supplying, probably Toro Rosso and they are not gonna do it. So Renault deal is more and more away.

Mercedes sign still open as they haven't renewed Bottas, why are they waiting? Next week is September already when Alo will decide his future. I wouldn't be surprise they had a precontract on Christmas. Alo was the first one to be called rumours were saying, so why Mercedes would be interested on last Chistmas and not now? Also Lauda critisizing his salary etc... a kind of indirect message to drop the salary.

Please stop, they will resign Bottas quickly. Mercedes made it quite clear that Alonso won't join the team as long as Hamilton is there.

[F1NAC]

Honda’s Yusuke Hasegawa says that the engine supplier could see ‘nothing in the data’ to indicate there was a problem with Fernando Alonso’s McLaren prior to his retirement.

After dropping gradually through the field during the Belgian Grand Prix, Alonso retired from the race on lap 26, complaining of an engine problem on his car.

Despite Alonso’s claims, Hasegawa says the decision was made to pull Alonso out of the race even though there was no indication of any problems in the team’s data.

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2017/08/27/n ... say-honda/

Probably he just parked car in garage

[FvtecA]

That was embarassing. I knew there would be problems but that start raised hopes.

Speaking of the start, I think this was one of the first amazing starts that Alonso did this year. Last year there were many. I guess the latest update that improved low end torque had something to do with it.

Anyway, Monza. So this will be even more embarassing. But I have a model to calibrate. Lets see.

I think no other circuit would be a good model for Monza so this left me thinking. I decided to assume that Monza 16 would be fine since this would be a low downforce circuit so it will be more of a pure drag thing. Another problem is that I don't know what the HP gap was like last year at Monza so I'll assume it was 65 HP, a little more than Abu Dhabi. Now the gap to pole was 2.1 s but Alonso did not make it to Q3 so it may have been slightly better. Maybe that and scaling it for a faster time this year makes it 2 s, making it 0.3 s per 10 HP.

Another problem is that if Alonso gets a grid penalty for a new engine, then he won't set a representative time. But if he does we can cross check with these numbers.

Baseline:
(995 - 940)*0.3 = 1.65

+15 HP
(995 - 955)*0.3 = 1.2

+25 HP
(995 - 965)*0.3 = 0.9

The rumours suggest either there was a 15 HP update or that update was already present in 3.5 and now we are getting Spec 4 which is 25 HP more. So those are the two numbers I am using.

[JonoNic]

Honda’s Yusuke Hasegawa says that the engine supplier could see ‘nothing in the data’ to indicate there was a problem with Fernando Alonso’s McLaren prior to his retirement.

After dropping gradually through the field during the Belgian Grand Prix, Alonso retired from the race on lap 26, complaining of an engine problem on his car.

Despite Alonso’s claims, Hasegawa says the decision was made to pull Alonso out of the race even though there was no indication of any problems in the team’s data.

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2017/08/27/n ... say-honda/

Probably he just parked car in garage

https://i.imgur.com/2BQF88th.jpg

I read quite a few posters saying that Alonso was right to stop the car due to his frustration (If that indeed is the case) and say there's a PU issue. However, Honda is also doing the right thing by calling out Alonso in public if there was nothing wrong. If Alonso has his way then Honda is out of F1 (What other team will use the current Honda PU?). They will not go out without a fight. I think this attack from Alonso on Honda may close even more doors with other manufacturers if he's not careful.

[ZakB]

Alonso has no options except McLaren, which is why he is currently pushing so hard to get rid of Honda.

[Juzh]

I think Mercedes and Ferrari can run full MGU-K deployment for all of a qualy lap. It is likely that they don't but not because they don't have enough energy to deploy but more likely because they run part of the lap with wastegate open and the MGU-H driving the compressor.

No on can deploy for entire lap at max power (120 kw) and wont be able to for as long as the rules stay as they are. It's very obvious they can't do it from how different acceleration is at different parts of tracks.

can I ask which of the numbers I used you disagree with? I think they have more than enough electrical energy to achieve full deployment for WOT over a full lap. I didn't include the charging they can do under part throttle which would provide even more energy.

Do you have some examples of the variation in acceleration rates?

On his pole lap In china for example, hamilton did 328 kph on the start/finish straight and he did 329 kph on the back straight, which is 3 times the length. Very clearly they do not deploy at the same rates for those 2 stretches do they? There's only one reason why that would be the case and that is the fact they can't do it at max output over the whole lap.

[Redragon]

Aperently Alonso has made a agreement whit Carlos Ghosn....works status Renault engine for Mclaren in 2018 and switch to Renault Sport F1 to end his career in 2019.

For that to happen Renault has to brake contract with one of the teams are supplying, probably Toro Rosso and they are not gonna do it. So Renault deal is more and more away.

Mercedes sign still open as they haven't renewed Bottas, why are they waiting? Next week is September already when Alo will decide his future. I wouldn't be surprise they had a precontract on Christmas. Alo was the first one to be called rumours were saying, so why Mercedes would be interested on last Chistmas and not now? Also Lauda critisizing his salary etc... a kind of indirect message to drop the salary.

Please stop, they will resign Bottas quickly. Mercedes made it quite clear that Alonso won't join the team as long as Hamilton is there.

Why? Until Bottas is signed it is open the possibitlity

[ZakB]

No on can deploy for entire lap at max power (120 kw) and wont be able to for as long as the rules stay as they are. It's very obvious they can't do it from how different acceleration is at different parts of tracks.

can I ask which of the numbers I used you disagree with? I think they have more than enough electrical energy to achieve full deployment for WOT over a full lap. I didn't include the charging they can do under part throttle which would provide even more energy.

Do you have some examples of the variation in acceleration rates?

On his pole lap In china for example, hamilton did 328 kph on the start/finish straight and he did 329 kph on the back straight, which is 3 times the length. Very clearly they do not deploy at the same rates for those 2 stretches do they? There's only one reason why that would be the case and that is the fact they can't do it at max output over the whole lap.

http://i.imgur.com/zvPWQqE.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/VYWjeuR.jpg

A maximum of 4MJ per lap can be returned to the MGU-K and from there to the drivetrain - that’s ten times more than was possible with KERS, the ‘bolt-on’ recovery system ERS replaced in 2014. That means drivers have access to an additional 160bhp or so for approximately 33 seconds per lap.

I also doubt it.

For that to happen Renault has to brake contract with one of the teams are supplying, probably Toro Rosso and they are not gonna do it. So Renault deal is more and more away.

Mercedes sign still open as they haven't renewed Bottas, why are they waiting? Next week is September already when Alo will decide his future. I wouldn't be surprise they had a precontract on Christmas. Alo was the first one to be called rumours were saying, so why Mercedes would be interested on last Chistmas and not now? Also Lauda critisizing his salary etc... a kind of indirect message to drop the salary.

Please stop, they will resign Bottas quickly. Mercedes made it quite clear that Alonso won't join the team as long as Hamilton is there.

Why? Until Bottas is signed it is open the possibitlity

Mercedes won't take Alonso while Hamilton is there. Alonso doesn't have a good name, he has a difficult personality. We like it, but the teams not so much. Mercedes don't want to create another Hamilton-Rosberg battle. Wolff also confirmed that the Bottas deal will be done quickly.

McLaren and Renault are his only options, although he probably hopes McLaren-Renault is going to happen.

[Del Boy]

I'm completely against GPS tuning to these items.

Hybrid deployment should be directly related to throttle deployment, not a track awareness via technology.

How is this kind of control scheme NOT considered a driver aid?

What would happen in reverse? What if it gave way too much in the wrong place?

The power deployment should be under the drivers control 100% of the time. Not a computer.

The technical regulations state that the PU is 100% controlled by the throttle. Article 5.6 is very clear, it's only about where the energy comes from!

[wuzak]

Nobody asked ALO why he had that burst of power to pass Hulk but he just seem to loose power after that and never showed the power again. I thought he lost electrical boost but his lap times were similar to Van's. Maybe he just had to go into fuel save mode ?

Yes, it was quite strange to see how he passed Hulkenberg, and after this he was helpless against the same Hulkenberg and the rest. That's why I think that they have power but not energy. Fuel saving.

The Renaults were running a relatively high downforce set up. This would have slowed him on the straight, while giving a good tow to Alonso. And I am sure Alonso used every last J of battery power in that move. And he had a full battery, as it was just after the start. Hulkenberg was, probably, using a more normal engine mode.

When Hulkenberg and the others started steaming past Alonso they had the aid of the DRS. But the reality is that they had passed, or nearly so, before the DRS line and the DRS just added insult to injury.

As for power, I think they were down in speed in qualifying too, and that does not have fuel saving.

[diffuser]

Nobody asked ALO why he had that burst of power to pass Hulk but he just seem to loose power after that and never showed the power again. I thought he lost electrical boost but his lap times were similar to Van's. Maybe he just had to go into fuel save mode ?

Yes, it was quite strange to see how he passed Hulkenberg, and after this he was helpless against the same Hulkenberg and the rest. That's why I think that they have power but not energy. Fuel saving.

i thought teams saved fuels when cars were running alone in the middle of the race? Why would they go into fuel saving mode in the second lap when everyone is bunched up and has DRS?

Depends on the severity. I guess. The lap is long at spa.