Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[ziggy]

One reason: they are Japanese.

Please have a moderator delete this comment.

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Returning to the main topic. They are said to test spec 4.0 on the FP1, then return to a 3.6 engine for the rest of the weekend. (@Albert Fabrega)

Why exactly? It's how they work.

One can see the same sort of thinking going on in Japan quite often and I would argue that this is actually the biggest problem that Honda faces in Formula 1. One simply cannot compete if one does not have the right kind of talent, and finding that sort of talent within one single nation is very difficult. Honda only seems to use Japanese people, and it has very few foreign research and development engineers. They are also operating in Japan, out of the main vortex of F1 development, and so new ideas take longer to filter through. This is a problem for all non-British teams (although there is a mini-cluster of expertise around Ferrari in Italy) because hiring in the right people is more difficult. This is why Scuderia Toro Rosso now seems to have 140 people (about a third of its staff) working in the UK.

Be careful on here mate. You will be labeled as a racist and heavily downvoted. Some people can feel insulted by such direct comments. You cannot say because they are Japanese. What you could say, is, it's because of the Japanese corporate and racing culture. This should be a fact, because Arai, Hasegawa and Wazari all said that. Long story short, they underestimated the current engine formula and somehow ignored all suggestions from the outside, because they wanted to do the things on their own.

And there is a pattern forming one cannot overlook. Honda and Toyota invested billions in the 2000's and what was the result? 1 (lucky) win from Button. Then theres Toyota in the WEC.

First big problem I see is the huge distance between chassis and engine(PU) development. PU, chassis and the transmission simply have to be developed (and produced) under 1 "roof".

Second big problem is or was the language barrier. At least for me it was very difficult to understand Arai. I somehow have to be very concentrated when I listen to Hasegawa to understand what he is saying.

Third big problem are the countless empty promises. I guess people are sick of hearing "rumors", not only now but also in the 2000's. It was the very same story.

And last the corporate culture. Thinking you can beat lets say Honeywell (in very short time) is utter nonsense. The company is developing turbine tech since 70 years. You simply can't make this up in a few years. Never ever. Same goes for electronics and so on.

So either they play the "dirty west capitalism" F1 game, buy their --- from the top supplyers and at least have a chance to win, or they "die" trying their own way. Sad as it is.

peace

[godlameroso]

Maybe intentional boost creep is a better phrase than blowdown. Generally when you have it(BC) your wastegate(s) don't flow enough, so the turbine keeps building up boost despite the fully open wastegate. Any boost creep you can't control with the MGU-H could simply be purged on the compressor side via pop off/blow off valve.

[etusch]

BBC wrote it's spec 3.7 for FP1 and then 3.5 for the rest of the weekend. Another incremental update.

Until something along the lines of TJI or HCCI is the basis of the combustion concept, aren't all the updates just incremental?

It is just my opinion. I think Honda can intoduce tji whenever they want but they have issues with electric production and tji makes it worse. They are working on ice along this season, then electric part for next season. I don't think they are much behind rivals as ice power.

[etusch]

And there is a pattern forming one cannot overlook. Honda and Toyota invested billions in the 2000's and what was the result? 1 (lucky) win from Button. Then theres Toyota in the WEC.

I always say that if there was not tyre difference I strongly believe that 2004 Bar Honda could have fight with Ferrari for championchip.

[dren]

Maybe intentional boost creep is a better phrase than blowdown. Generally when you have it(BC) your wastegate(s) don't flow enough, so the turbine keeps building up boost despite the fully open wastegate. Any boost creep you can't control with the MGU-H could simply be purged on the compressor side via pop off/blow off valve.

That just sounds like a poorly designed system.

[dren]

And there is a pattern forming one cannot overlook. Honda and Toyota invested billions in the 2000's and what was the result? 1 (lucky) win from Button. Then theres Toyota in the WEC.

I always say that if there was not tyre difference I strongly believe that 2004 Bar Honda could have fight with Ferrari for championchip.

A little off topic, but that car should have won races that year.

[dren]

They should have hired specialists from Ferrari, Renault and Mercedes. Seriously, i'm getting tired of all these Honda fans that come up with excuses about tokens and new concept. If I don't know what to do, I hire people to do it. It isn't that hard, it's just going to cost you a lot of money. Honda probably thought 'we're giving them 100 million yearly, so we can do whatever we want'. They are a big, big joke. I wasn't expecting wins this year, but lacking 80BHP compared to customer Mercedes, pffff.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, isn't it? Honda brought in past expertise to design the new PU. We should see those fruits later this year.

The Honda PU will get a nice bump from the combustion concept update; Ferrari and Renault did when they received similar updates.

[godlameroso]

Maybe intentional boost creep is a better phrase than blowdown. Generally when you have it(BC) your wastegate(s) don't flow enough, so the turbine keeps building up boost despite the fully open wastegate. Any boost creep you can't control with the MGU-H could simply be purged on the compressor side via pop off/blow off valve.

That just sounds like a poorly designed system.

Depends, in a standard turbo engine without ERS probably it is, on these power units certain compromises can turn into extra engine power or extra energy recovery, depending on how all the various systems are managed. Just mastering the management of energy is worth at least .5 seconds, with no increase in overall power.

Maybe an increase in combustion efficiency could be worth as much as a second all things considered, because it would make energy management that much easier as well as having increased engine power. So for now Honda spends time developing how it uses the energy it does have.

If the 'flat through Pouhon MGU-K de-rate' excuse holds any water, then we can't ignore a bigger issue. Honda still is learning which strategies work best through different parts of a track, under which conditions. There's a good deal of time waiting to be found there, but still the combustion is the most important part. Perhaps, doing the best you can with the limited relative energy could in a way be a good teacher as far as it's management is concerned. When the combustion improvement comes along, the extra energy will be put to good use as Honda has been so used to managing a meager energy supply, relative to the others, that they may have gained a few insights.

In the same token, they could find all sorts of new strategies are possible because of the increased efficiency. Things they couldn't do before because there wasn't enough energy available.

[cyro_666]

It would seem Fernando still believes McLaren-Honda can be a winning team:
http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/ ... -champions
I think they told him something we don't know and Honda actually has a big upgrade up their sleeves.

[Joseki]

AMuS: spec 3.7 is 3 hp more powerful than 3.6.

[Joseki]

It would seem Fernando still believes McLaren-Honda can be a winning team:
http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/ ... -champions
I think they told him something we don't know and Honda actually has a big upgrade up their sleeves.

I think that many people put too much weight on Fernando's team radios and post races interviews. He's very passionate while driving and often talks too much, but he doesn't make choices after the races.

[etusch]

AMuS: spec 3.7 is 3 hp more powerful than 3.6.

İs there any possibility that you forgot to write a 0 near to 3 ?

[PlatinumZealot]

In case you don't understand the relevance. Imagine if when the wastegates open the pressure in the exhaust goes down and ICE makes extra crank power. If in this mode the turbine still extracts energy from the exhaust pulses ( blowdown) that power can supplement the power provided by the MGU-H to drive the compressor. The more blowdown power the longer the wastegate open mode can be deployed.

The topic I reference above was topic 5 in a bing search for "blowdown turbine".

I'd refer you to my earlier post in this thread on the need to respect others terminology and mental models but I think I'd be wasting my time.

Yup. I remember that topic clearly - I participated in that "blowdown" discussion and I even remember the articles he posted. They were useful. Most of the materials were on older aircraft and diesel engines. I did say that I respect his terminology. You didn't even read my post but are quick to villainize. Check that topic again.

[radosav]

Well, if difference between 3.6 and 3.7 engine is 3hp, then 4.0 spec should have 12 hp more than 3.6 spec.
Spec 5.0 should have 42 hp more than 3.6 spec engine.

[wuzak]

Well, if difference between 3.6 and 3.7 engine is 3hp, then 4.0 spec should have 12 hp more than 3.6 spec.
Spec 5.0 should have 42 hp more than 3.6 spec engine.

Only 100hp more to go then!