Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[GoranF1]

i think it's been done but obviously in secret,most likly no more than a few people in Honda&Mcl knows about it but i am sure it was done

[Richard]

We are talking about a PU sealed by the FIA that is kept in Merc's possession at all times. The PU suppliers take their engines back to their factories between each race for rest and recuperation.

I'm sure McLaren staff have had a very good look at the outside of the unit and they'll have drawings of the outside and connection points so they can integrate their chassis design. However beyond that it's just a sealed box.

I agree an experienced PU design engineer would be able to deduce the general arrangement, but there is no way to work out the combustion chamber geometry, the bearings, the cam geometry etc.

[FW17]

I do not think that the engine is with Merc all the time.

After a race the car is not dismantled but just boxed with the wings removed and transported back to the factory or to the next race.

When the car is disassembled at the factory or next race venue, the PU is taken by the engine suppliers engineers for diagnostics

[Redragon]

We are talking about a PU sealed by the FIA that is kept in Merc's possession at all times. The PU suppliers take their engines back to their factories between each race for rest and recuperation.

I'm sure McLaren staff have had a very good look at the outside of the unit and they'll have drawings of the outside and connection points so they can integrate their chassis design. However beyond that it's just a sealed box.

I agree an experienced PU design engineer would be able to deduce the general arrangement, but there is no way to work out the combustion chamber geometry, the bearings, the cam geometry etc.

what about a thermal camera or x rays?

[gary123]

Does Honda have advanced Dynos like AVL and the future Ferrari will have? Because Dennis said a month ago that Honda had 30 of the most advanced Dynos to test the engines.

[Facts Only]

I do not think that the engine is with Merc all the time

They are, the PU's are always under Mercedes control. Even at the circuit they are worked on in an HPP controlled office if the have to have any changes/repairs made.

[godlameroso]

The ICE isn't as critical as the other components. The regulations limit the scope for ICE innovation, and less so for the other systems. Besides I'm pretty sure Honda can build an ICE with the best of them. It's everything else, and getting it all to work in harmony that's a challenge, and I'm also pretty sure these external components are easier to copy and adapt than the engine internals.

[Alexgtt]

The ICE isn't as critical as the other components. The regulations limit the scope for ICE innovation, and less so for the other systems. Besides I'm pretty sure Honda can build an ICE with the best of them. It's everything else, and getting it all to work in harmony that's a challenge, and I'm also pretty sure these external components are easier to copy and adapt than the engine internals.

This +1. Does anyone really think Honda need to copy the insides of an engine? Come on fellas, they know how to produce an efficient ICE. It's the clever control systems, electronics and hybrid tech they'll be fighting the tide against and I'll lay a small amount down (lets say £1, I'm not a betting man) and say they'll be there or there about apart from reliability. They need track time to overcome that.

[PlatinumZealot]

The ICE isn't as critical as the other components. The regulations limit the scope for ICE innovation, and less so for the other systems. Besides I'm pretty sure Honda can build an ICE with the best of them. It's everything else, and getting it all to work in harmony that's a challenge, and I'm also pretty sure these external components are easier to copy and adapt than the engine internals.

This +1. Does anyone really think Honda need to copy the insides of an engine? Come on fellas, they know how to produce an efficient ICE. It's the clever control systems, electronics and hybrid tech they'll be fighting the tide against and I'll lay a small amount down (lets say £1, I'm not a betting man) and say they'll be there or there about apart from reliability. They need track time to overcome that.

+2 Honda has been making some of the best street cars engines for decades. It took years for other companies to catch them up in horsepower per liter while meeting emissions regulations. They are also very experienced in the Turbo and Hybrid areas. Honda, like BMW spends tonnes of resources on their engine development. And you know, ironically, Mercedes Gmbh are historically not that good at making the best engines. If you check history, Mercedes out of Germany had innovative street engines but they were never top class performers like the ones from BMW or Porsce. In fact the Mercedes ICE in F1 is more English than German. I am even beginning to doubt that the ERS is of German origin. Honda has every bit of a chance of making an engine that can match or even surpass Mercedes.

[marcush.]

I´m not so sure here .after all it is 100litres of well brewed stuff you have at your disposal compare this with a meagre few seconds of energy recovery under breaking ,admittedly some recovery through the exhaust and a small bucket of electrical energy you may be able to store before the flag drops..
Sure the ICE development cannot be treated as a separate entity from the electrical propulsion systems but it is IMPORTANT as ever.

[gruntguru]

The ICE isn't as critical as the other components. The regulations limit the scope for ICE innovation, and less so for the other systems. Besides I'm pretty sure Honda can build an ICE with the best of them. It's everything else, and getting it all to work in harmony that's a challenge, and I'm also pretty sure these external components are easier to copy and adapt than the engine internals.

This +1. Does anyone really think Honda need to copy the insides of an engine? Come on fellas, they know how to produce an efficient ICE. It's the clever control systems, electronics and hybrid tech they'll be fighting the tide against and I'll lay a small amount down (lets say £1, I'm not a betting man) and say they'll be there or there about apart from reliability. They need track time to overcome that.

The one internal detail where MB may have some unique advantage is mixture preparation - ie intake flow, chamber shape, injector geometry etc.

[Cold Fussion]

If nothing else, Honda are very clear on what the power requirements are. Judging by the deficits for Ferrari and Renault, it seems partly that they didn't set ambitious enough requirements.

[Alexgtt]

Agreed on combustion chamber and mix data to a degree but pretty sure Honda are up on this.

I'm quite convinced they are in a good position strategically coming one year behind the others. It gives them benchmarks on certain known and easily available data and if they manage to secure development tokens through the year, they'll be strong. Straight away they could see the potential in the engine layout/turbo arrangement, etc. working on the Merc and could react from clean sheet design and not tokens. That in itself is a good advantage.

[dren]

+2 Honda has been making some of the best street cars engines for decades. It took years for other companies to catch them up in horsepower per liter while meeting emissions regulations. They are also very experienced in the Turbo and Hybrid areas. Honda, like BMW spends tonnes of resources on their engine development. And you know, ironically, Mercedes Gmbh are historically not that good at making the best engines. If you check history, Mercedes out of Germany had innovative street engines but they were never top class performers like the ones from BMW or Porsce. In fact the Mercedes ICE in F1 is more English than German. I am even beginning to doubt that the ERS is of German origin. Honda has every bit of a chance of making an engine that can match or even surpass Mercedes.

Honda doesn't have much experience with turbo ICEs. The last competitive race turbo ICE Honda had was in the back of a Mclaren. Their current turbo race engines aren't very competitive. They are just about to release turbo DI engines to the public for the first time late this year. Most other manufacturers are quite a bit ahead of them.

Making a good 4 banger with a VTEC cam doesn't equate to making a good TT DI V6. They have quite a bit of experience with hybrids and electric cars, so that will certainly be of benefit.

The last F1 engine Honda made was under powered and over weight. Although they were about to upgrade it when Renault upgraded theirs, but then they bailed out of F1.

[GoranF1]

+2 Honda has been making some of the best street cars engines for decades. It took years for other companies to catch them up in horsepower per liter while meeting emissions regulations. They are also very experienced in the Turbo and Hybrid areas. Honda, like BMW spends tonnes of resources on their engine development. And you know, ironically, Mercedes Gmbh are historically not that good at making the best engines. If you check history, Mercedes out of Germany had innovative street engines but they were never top class performers like the ones from BMW or Porsce. In fact the Mercedes ICE in F1 is more English than German. I am even beginning to doubt that the ERS is of German origin. Honda has every bit of a chance of making an engine that can match or even surpass Mercedes.

Honda doesn't have much experience with turbo ICEs. The last competitive race turbo ICE Honda had was in the back of a Mclaren. Their current turbo race engines aren't very competitive. They are just about to release turbo DI engines to the public for the first time late this year. Most other manufacturers are quite a bit ahead of them.

Making a good 4 banger with a VTEC cam doesn't equate to making a good TT DI V6. They have quite a bit of experience with hybrids and electric cars, so that will certainly be of benefit.

The last F1 engine Honda made was under powered and over weight. Although they were about to upgrade it when Renault upgraded theirs, but then they bailed out of F1.

their last F1 V8 wasnt't very good by their last F1 V10 was one of the best.