Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
ESPImperium
ESPImperium
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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Clarification on the where the PU is between races ect...

Teams get to have one PU in their factory all year (Exeption being Mercedes, Ferrari, Mclaren and Red Bull) for fire up on new chassis at the start of the year.

Teams do have three 'Travel PU' per season where the chassis is connected to the gearbox. This is usually a old PU that has seen its milage (usually a old test PU from a pre season or mid season test) on track.

Teams, who are not have a works provider, have a 'engine room' for the engine guys to work on a engine in the teams factory, like Sauber/Ferrari or Williams/Mercedes. Same here is for gearboxes. These rooms are tightly controlled by the engine supplier, usually having a different key card for entry, and only to certain personnel.

Teams do not often have access to a full PU in their factory, you are lucky if its 14 days a entire year. In that time, there is usually at least 2 Mercedes/Ferrari guys with it at all times, Renault operate differently by only having 1 guy. Honda will probably operate like a works team and leave it under camera like Mercedes/Ferrari.

Anyone who thinks Honda won't have had a look at the Mercedes when it was at Woking last year is deluded, they will have had a good gander. However how good a look they had and how much info they can take from that is another matter. They may have had a minute here and a minute there, but they won't have been able to take good enough pics of it, if they had the time. HOWEVER... I did notice a few "Japanese' origin/looking guys at the back of the Mclaren garage last year who i didn't see there before, just makes me wonder if they were put there as spy for Honda. But again, if Mercedes were doing things right, Mclaren would be a step behind the works motor, if not a entire generation behind as the Williams and Force India seemed to have lots more extra over the Mclaren, it was only when FI went down that blind alley aero wise did McLaren catch up enough. However that generation behind that McLaren to my eyes had was better than the Renault and Ferrari PUs for the most part.

I think Honda will come out with the second best PU in 2015, but if they get their way with the FIA, and i think they will come to an arrangement i the next week or so over the engine freeze, they will develop their engine faster than the guys who were there a year. I think Honda and the FIA will come to the arrangement that the engine will be Homologated on the 28th of February 2015, but i also think that the first two PU components in rotation will have to be in that configuration. Meaning half way through the season Honda will come out with a new PU and start to motor as they will have been able to set up things for then. Id say the new PU will see the test at the Red Bull Ring test the raced from event 10 or 11 onward if not from the first race back after the summer break in Belgum. All dependant on how reliable the Honda donkey is and if the drivers have had to take a 3rd PU by then.

I think that there will be other changes to the PU rules for 2016, so if Honda has been intelligent, it will have engineered the ICE to be able to accept the Twin Turbo idea and the change in crankshaft and the simplified and possibly standardised in some respects/areas ERS. This way Honda could be able to produce a PU that may be more of a advantage in 2016 and use 2015 as a learning year for the McLaren team and Honda PU guys. That is if the powers to be want to increase the power to the 1,000 horsepower mark and increase the volume that extra 5dB that would be able to make the promotors happy as it would not only make the hardcore fan happy on the noise side, but also be loud enough to be able to attract the family audience to a race track, as anything higher than 140dB is not acceptable to the family audience, the V8s were 145dB+.

F1 is changing, i think the future of the sport in technical terms is in good shape, it just needs a little tinkering for cost reasons, but i think the tech rules are the only thing that is right about the sport. Its the Sporting and cost sides id need a rant that would last pages and pages.

Facts Only
Facts Only
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Joined: 03 Jul 2014, 10:25

Re: Honda Power Unit

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ESPImperium wrote:
Mclaren would be a step behind the works motor, if not a entire generation behind as the Williams and Force India seemed to have lots more extra over the Mclaren, it was only when FI went down that blind alley aero wise did McLaren catch up enough. However that generation behind that McLaren to my eyes had was better than the Renault and Ferrari PUs for the most part.
Part of the legacy agreement between Mercedes and Mclaren was that Mclaren got the same specification PU as Mercedes GP up until the end of 2014, they were never a generation behind and usually a generation ahead of Williams and FIF1

The reason for the PU disparity between Mclaren and the others is the Mobil fuel that they use, the PU wasn't developed for it and so couldn't run to the the optimum as the Petronas powered cars could.
"A pretentious quote taken out of context to make me look deep" - Some old racing driver

garrett
garrett
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Joined: 23 May 2012, 21:01

Re: Honda Power Unit

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I think Honda will come out with the second best PU in 2015, but if they get their way with the FIA, and i think they will come to an arrangement i the next week or so over the engine freeze
I think the FIA (who spoke of "fairness") should 1. give them the same opportunities the other manufacturers have or (more likely) 2. instead give Honda the same number of tests like 2014 and still 5 instead of 4 PUs like it was in 2014 at least, as a compensation for their disadvantage. The FIA should notice that there should be a "bonus" for newbies to encourage new entrants to join F1, of course in a shape the other manufacturers can live with.

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djos
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Joined: 19 May 2006, 06:09
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Honda wins F1 engines fight
16 January 2015 Updated 23:10
By Andrew Benson - Chief F1 writer
Formula 1's governing body the FIA has backtracked on an earlier ruling that allowed Mercedes, Renault and Ferrari to upgrade their engines but not Honda.
The move comes after Honda expressed its unhappiness about what it considered to be an unfair situation.
Honda will now be allowed to develop its brand new engine within limits explicitly laid out by the FIA.
http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/30860 ... um=twitter

Well hooray, commonsense has finally prevailed!
"In downforce we trust"

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Mesteño
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Joined: 03 May 2012, 12:42

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Awesome news!

chip engineer
chip engineer
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Location: Colorado, USA

Re: Honda Power Unit

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dren wrote: Honda doesn't have much experience with turbo ICEs. The last competitive race turbo ICE Honda had was in the back of a Mclaren. Their current turbo race engines aren't very competitive. They are just about to release turbo DI engines to the public for the first time late this year. Most other manufacturers are quite a bit ahead of them.

Making a good 4 banger with a VTEC cam doesn't equate to making a good TT DI V6. They have quite a bit of experience with hybrids and electric cars, so that will certainly be of benefit.

The last F1 engine Honda made was under powered and over weight. Although they were about to upgrade it when Renault upgraded theirs, but then they bailed out of F1.
While it is not F1, Honda has a competitive IndyCar turbo DI V6 engine. At 2.2L it does have a little more displacement than 1.6L F1. That seems like pretty valuable experience to me.

wuzak
wuzak
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Joined: 30 Aug 2011, 03:26

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Sorry, but that is --- up.

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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Honda has learned some good skills for getting things done ( their way) with sports officialdom..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

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djos
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Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Honda Power Unit

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wuzak wrote:Sorry, but that is --- up.
It's F1, surely you didn't expect something more sensible?
"In downforce we trust"

wuzak
wuzak
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Joined: 30 Aug 2011, 03:26

Re: Honda Power Unit

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djos wrote:
wuzak wrote:Sorry, but that is --- up.
It's F1, surely you didn't expect something more sensible?
The sensible solution is for Ferrari and Renault to run their 2014 unit until they homologate their 2015 unit, with all their 32 tokens. Honda would have to homologate before the season started.

I can't see how it is any way fair that Honda get any tokens.

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djos
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Joined: 19 May 2006, 06:09
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Honda Power Unit

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wuzak wrote:
djos wrote:
wuzak wrote:Sorry, but that is --- up.
It's F1, surely you didn't expect something more sensible?
The sensible solution is for Ferrari and Renault to run their 2014 unit until they homologate their 2015 unit, with all their 32 tokens. Honda would have to homologate before the season started.

I can't see how it is any way fair that Honda get any tokens.
It's simple, Honda have no race experience with their engine at all, to be frozen would be unfair.
"In downforce we trust"

wuzak
wuzak
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Joined: 30 Aug 2011, 03:26

Re: Honda Power Unit

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djos wrote:It's simple, Honda have no race experience with their engine at all, to be frozen would be unfair.
That is not a justification for givingHonda tokens before they've been earned.

If the original plan went ahead, and Ferrari and Renault were able to make it happen, Honda would be competing with PUs that were completely upgraded. Now they will be competing with engines that have been partially upgraded until the final homologation.

So Honda will be getting development in the season like the others, which sounds fair - but it isn't. They can still change things Ferrari and Renault can't.

If it goes down as is my understanding, Ferrari and Renault will be competing in the first few races with PUs that have been frozen for >12 months. Then they will introduce the upgraded PUs (all 32 tokens spent) and that will be it for the season. Worst case scenario there is that Mercedes also introduce their 2015 PU later. Which means under this ruling that Honda get a full 32 tokens to use for their upgrade program. Which is manifestly unfair.

There should only be one homologation per year. Until that happens they can run a previously homologated engine.

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1158
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Joined: 06 Mar 2012, 05:48

Re: Honda Power Unit

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wuzak wrote:
djos wrote:It's simple, Honda have no race experience with their engine at all, to be frozen would be unfair.
That is not a justification for givingHonda tokens before they've been earned.

If the original plan went ahead, and Ferrari and Renault were able to make it happen, Honda would be competing with PUs that were completely upgraded. Now they will be competing with engines that have been partially upgraded until the final homologation.

So Honda will be getting development in the season like the others, which sounds fair - but it isn't. They can still change things Ferrari and Renault can't.

If it goes down as is my understanding, Ferrari and Renault will be competing in the first few races with PUs that have been frozen for >12 months. Then they will introduce the upgraded PUs (all 32 tokens spent) and that will be it for the season. Worst case scenario there is that Mercedes also introduce their 2015 PU later. Which means under this ruling that Honda get a full 32 tokens to use for their upgrade program. Which is manifestly unfair.

There should only be one homologation per year. Until that happens they can run a previously homologated engine.
No. What happens is Merc/Ferrari/Renault can upgrade their PUs as often as they want through the season until they use all 32 tokens.

Honda gets to use the average of the unused tokens from the start of the season. So if all 3 engine manufacturers show up in Australia with all 32 tokens used Honda gets nothing. If Merc use 30, Ferrari 28, and Renault 29 then Honda would get 3 tokens to use during the season.

Given the FIA cock up I think this is the best solution for all parties involved.

wuzak
wuzak
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Joined: 30 Aug 2011, 03:26

Re: Honda Power Unit

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1158 wrote:
wuzak wrote:
djos wrote:It's simple, Honda have no race experience with their engine at all, to be frozen would be unfair.
That is not a justification for givingHonda tokens before they've been earned.

If the original plan went ahead, and Ferrari and Renault were able to make it happen, Honda would be competing with PUs that were completely upgraded. Now they will be competing with engines that have been partially upgraded until the final homologation.

So Honda will be getting development in the season like the others, which sounds fair - but it isn't. They can still change things Ferrari and Renault can't.

If it goes down as is my understanding, Ferrari and Renault will be competing in the first few races with PUs that have been frozen for >12 months. Then they will introduce the upgraded PUs (all 32 tokens spent) and that will be it for the season. Worst case scenario there is that Mercedes also introduce their 2015 PU later. Which means under this ruling that Honda get a full 32 tokens to use for their upgrade program. Which is manifestly unfair.

There should only be one homologation per year. Until that happens they can run a previously homologated engine.
No. What happens is Merc/Ferrari/Renault can upgrade their PUs as often as they want through the season until they use all 32 tokens.

Honda gets to use the average of the unused tokens from the start of the season. So if all 3 engine manufacturers show up in Australia with all 32 tokens used Honda gets nothing. If Merc use 30, Ferrari 28, and Renault 29 then Honda would get 3 tokens to use during the season.

Given the FIA cock up I think this is the best solution for all parties involved.
I disagree.

If Honda get extra tokens then the others should get extra tokens too.

Because giving any tokens to Honda is giving them extra above what the others get.

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charlex
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Re: R: Honda Power Unit

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djos wrote:Honda wins F1 engines fight
16 January 2015 Updated 23:10
By Andrew Benson - Chief F1 writer
Formula 1's governing body the FIA has backtracked on an earlier ruling that allowed Mercedes, Renault and Ferrari to upgrade their engines but not Honda.
The move comes after Honda expressed its unhappiness about what it considered to be an unfair situation.
Honda will now be allowed to develop its brand new engine within limits explicitly laid out by the FIA.
http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/30860 ... um=twitter

Well hooray, commonsense has finally prevailed!
That's pretty unfair