F1 Performance: is it the car, is it the driver?

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
mnmracer
mnmracer
-26
Joined: 17 Sep 2011, 23:41

Re: Vettel vs Ricciardo 2014

Post

beelsebob wrote:
mnmracer wrote: Was Vettel a better driver in 2008 when he "managed to shine in a slower car" than during his winning spree?
No, because as we all know, there are reasons why that happened. It wasn't shining in a slower car, it was just a car that happened to work very well in very specific circumstances. Much like Maldonado at Spain.
You do realize 2008 had 18 races, right?
beelsebob wrote:
Was Hamilton a better driver last year when he didn't just win every race in the fastest car?
He didn't have the fastest car, so...
Hamilton has the fastest car in 25 years this year.
beelsebob wrote:
Do you really think that during Schumacher's Ferrari-championship years he was a worse driver than in 1997-1999?
No, but I do think that 2004 is in no way indicative of a great racing driver (much like 2014 isn't either).
So are you saying Schumacher was bad in 2004?
Or was he a great driver, even if he did have the fastest car that year?

User avatar
FoxHound
55
Joined: 23 Aug 2012, 16:50

F1 Performance: is it the car, is it the driver?

Post

mnmracer wrote:Was Hamilton a better driver last year when he didn't just win every race in the fastest car?........................Hamilton has the fastest car in 25 years this year.

Wait. He had the fastest car last year? Really?
Ya dig stats right? So I thought I'd stat it up, cos I have some time before I watch the new x-man(men) flick.

Hamilton had an average grid slot of 3.21 and Rosberg 4.42.
In comparison, Vettel had 2.05 and Webber 3.89.

The halfway house on these is 3.815 for the Merc W04 and 2.97 for the RB9.

Glad that's sorted.

Then we have the Tyre deg issues of the W04 which everyone here knows hampered the cars during the race.
One lap pace looks fancy, but it aint worth my used film ticket if you can't use it during the race.
So, yea the RB9 was a clear head and shoulders above anything out there last year, for those that don't already know.

And the W05 is a mighty machine ain't it? Yes Hamilton has got the fastest car this year....not sure where you getting the data for the next 13 races from to make the claim it's the fastest car in the last 25 years, but....Isn't Hamilton using it wonderfully well?
4 poles from 6, and an average of 1.33 grid slot. And 4 wins and a 2nd in 6 races with a car failure to blotch the old copybook.

I'm thinking Vettel feels now what every driver other than he or (possibly)Webber felt in the last 4 years.....envy.
JET set

mnmracer
mnmracer
-26
Joined: 17 Sep 2011, 23:41

Re: Vettel vs Ricciardo 2014

Post

FoxHound wrote:
mnmracer wrote:Was Hamilton a better driver last year when he didn't just win every race in the fastest car?........................Hamilton has the fastest car in 25 years this year.
Wait. He had the fastest car last year? Really?
what part of this year is unclear to you?
FoxHound wrote:Isn't Hamilton using it wonderfully well?
4 poles from 6, and an average of 1.33 grid slot. And 4 wins and a 2nd in 6 races with a car failure to blotch the old copybook.
So long story short, you agree with me that the "he's not a good driver, he just has the fastest car and doesn't have to do anything all race" mantra we've heard over the last couple of year is BS.
Last edited by mnmracer on 27 May 2014, 20:11, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
FoxHound
55
Joined: 23 Aug 2012, 16:50

Re: Vettel vs Ricciardo 2014

Post

mnmracer wrote:
FoxHound wrote:
mnmracer wrote:Was Hamilton a better driver last year when he didn't just win every race in the fastest car?........................Hamilton has the fastest car in 25 years this year.
Wait. He had the fastest car last year? Really?
what part of this year is unclear to you?
This bit.
JET set

mnmracer
mnmracer
-26
Joined: 17 Sep 2011, 23:41

Re: Vettel vs Ricciardo 2014

Post

FoxHound wrote:
mnmracer wrote:
mnmracer wrote:Was Hamilton a better driver last year when he didn't just win every race in the fastest car?........................Hamilton has the fastest car in 25 years this year.
what part of this year is unclear to you?
This bit.
Was Hamilton a better driver last year THAN THIS YEAR (you know, the year in which he has the fastest car)?
Now do you understand?

User avatar
FoxHound
55
Joined: 23 Aug 2012, 16:50

Re: Vettel vs Ricciardo 2014

Post

mnmracer wrote:So long story short, you agree with me that the "he's not a good driver, he just has the fastest car and doesn't have to do anything all race" mantra we've heard over the last couple of year is BS.

What Hamilton has shown, is that he is thus far, faster than Rosberg.
He and Rosberg have also shown very good race craft whilst dicing.

That is pretty much all we can deduce.

If you want to say Hamilton is "not good", then that is your view. But I wouldn't extrapolate that from what I've seen.
I would also say that I think Vettel is a good driver from what I've seen. A very good driver.
He is not however, William Wallace, and he doesn't have thunderbolts for farts.
mnmracer wrote:Was Hamilton a better driver last year THAN THIS YEAR (you know, the year in which he has the fastest car)?
Now do you understand?
Completely, had you written it initially. Would saved me 10 minutes writing....But it's cool, the mrs is blow drying her hair.

Now MNM, do you see what a difference a car makes? And do you see that Vettel, whilst very good, is not a transcender of machines like the glorious Apocalypse of X-Men fame?

Most of us here are all really in agreement. Vettel is very good.
But some think that Vettel is the raison d'etre for Red Bull's success. The one. Neo. God. Galacticus. Ceaser. Kaiser. The Fonz.
And I think he is not.
Last edited by FoxHound on 27 May 2014, 20:31, edited 2 times in total.
JET set

Stradivarius
Stradivarius
1
Joined: 24 Jul 2012, 19:20

Re: Vettel vs Ricciardo 2014

Post

bhall wrote:It's always the car.
I might as well say "it's always the driver". Yes, the car is always important. But the car isn't the only important component. The driver is also always important. That is why we don't see all team mates performing at the same level as each other. The difference between a good driver and a not so good driver may very well be greater than the difference between a good car and a not so good car. This is reflected by the points.

Barrichello, the world's most experienced f1 driver of all times, spent his prime in Ferrari at the same time as Schumacher wrapped up his 5 last titles. He was also Button's team mate in 2009 when Brawn GP had a winning car. But Barrichello was never in contention for the title. Through his long carreer, he had winning cars, mediocre cars and he had loosing cars, as in 2007, but he was never in contention for the title, maybe with a small exception of 2009. At least he was almost in contention for a while. He could win a race on a lucky day, but over a full season he couldn't perform at the top level. Whatever car he was given, didn't make a difference, he wasn't close to any title. Every year there is at least one driver who fails to win the championship despite having a winning car. So I would argue it's always the car and the driver and his team, not just one of those.

User avatar
FoxHound
55
Joined: 23 Aug 2012, 16:50

Re: Vettel vs Ricciardo 2014

Post

Perhaps it is because of the very qualities you mention that Rubinho made a fabulous number 2 driver.
JET set

bhall
bhall
244
Joined: 28 Feb 2006, 21:26

Re: Vettel vs Ricciardo 2014

Post

FoxHound wrote:[...]

Most of us here are all really in agreement. Vettel is very good.
[...]
Yep. I'd welcome him to my favorite team.

In truth, my level of respect for him has gone up a bit this year, in part because he's not acting out childishly as a result of his struggles. In the primadonna-filled world that is F1, that's no small feat.

He's admitted that he has "an absolute lack of confidence" in certain aspects of his car and that Red Bull's recent chassis investigation "...was more a sanity check rather than a real problem with the other chassis." I think both are completely understandable of a driver who's suddenly discovered that his previous Championship-caliber methodology doesn't seem to work anymore. Some drivers don't posses such humility, which can easily make matters worse, because you can't solve a problem until you acknowledge it exists.

bhall
bhall
244
Joined: 28 Feb 2006, 21:26

Re: Vettel vs Ricciardo 2014

Post

mnmracer wrote:How can you possibly miss the point by such a country mile?
I dunno. You tell me.

It's so weird how you perpetually conflate anything less than the full-throated support of your favorite driver to mean others have said,"he's not a good driver, he just has the fastest car and doesn't have to do anything all race." I can't even wrap my head around such misinterpretations.

Let's try it this way then: hypothetically program two android drivers with the ability to take any car they operate to the razor's edge of their performance capabilities without committing a single error in the process. Now put those identical android drivers into two cars of varying capability and allow them to race each other. The android in the fastest car will win every time even though both androids performed at the exact same level. Does that then make the winning android the best android anyway?

This is why it's always the car, and it's quite easy to determine a car's capability by what it enables, because if a car does it, that means the car can do it, because the car did do it.

SpecialCircumstances
SpecialCircumstances
0
Joined: 24 Mar 2014, 01:02

Re: Vettel vs Ricciardo 2014

Post

Uhm yeah bhall, except you're arguing a strawman. I haven't seen anyone claim that Vettel is god and his titles are the proof. We HAVE seen however plenty of people the last few years, not saying that's you, try to claim that no in fact, Vettel is not a very good driver and the fact that he has "only" won in the best car is a detriment to that...implying that there are others who DO win in lesser cars.

Whenever you see people bigging up Vettel and his accomplisments it is always in response to the constant swipes taken at him and the complete lack of logic in their "arguments".

User avatar
FoxHound
55
Joined: 23 Aug 2012, 16:50

Re: Vettel vs Ricciardo 2014

Post

mnmracer wrote:......Ranting
It would be fantastic to see what Hamilton and Alonso could've done in the Newey lineage RB range Vettel has enjoyed. Then we could deduce who would have done the better job of extracting more from the machines.

But we cannot. Therefore arguing over driver x and y is about as pointless as your post.

What I and a few a others have said repeatedly, is that
Vettel has enjoyed percentage wise, more dominant machinery than any of his current peers for a longer period of time in his shorter career.

Would you agree with this assessment?
JET set

mnmracer
mnmracer
-26
Joined: 17 Sep 2011, 23:41

Re: Vettel vs Ricciardo 2014

Post

FoxHound wrote:
mnmracer wrote:......Ranting
But we cannot. Therefore arguing over driver x and y is about as pointless as your post.
Yet people still do it.
And when I do nothing other than point out the fallacies in their arguments, you turn it around as if I'm the one arguing that.

bhall
bhall
244
Joined: 28 Feb 2006, 21:26

Re: Vettel vs Ricciardo 2014

Post

SpecialCircumstances wrote:Uhm yeah bhall, except you're arguing a strawman. I haven't seen anyone claim that Vettel is god and his titles are the proof. We HAVE seen however plenty of people the last few years, not saying that's you, try to claim that no in fact, Vettel is not a very good driver and the fact that he has "only" won in the best car is a detriment to that...implying that there are others who DO win in lesser cars.

Whenever you see people bigging up Vettel and his accomplisments it is always in response to the constant swipes taken at him and the complete lack of logic in their "arguments".
Oh, those claims are definitely out there. They're usually in the form of a strict refusal to acknowledge the capability of Vettel's cars over the last few years. I've actually seen it proffered on more than one occasion that a car with 12 wins, 18 poles, and 10 fastest laps lacks a CV strong enough to be considered dominant.

I think that's where the "God" bit comes in. After all, if it's not about the car, the only alternative is divine intervention, because us mere mortals can only go as fast a car will allow.

Just to tie a bow around this thing from my perspective, I think most folks tend to understand that success in F1 is mostly linked to the relative quality of each car, as they're generally pretty quick to point that out when their guy isn't winning. At the same time, though, many of those folks seem to forget it rather quickly when circumstances change for the better.

Even worse is when a driver storms out of the gate to begin his F1 career with a good team, because it delays the inevitable demonstration of his fallibility amongst his fans.

Personally, I think it's sooooo much easier and far more objective to give the credit to the car, which I don't consider to be a slight against any driver in particular, because they're all in the same boat.

But, I guess that's just the circlejerk of life.

User avatar
Phil
66
Joined: 25 Sep 2012, 16:22

Re: Vettel vs Ricciardo 2014

Post

bhall wrote:Let's try it this way then: hypothetically program two android drivers with the ability to take any car they operate to the razor's edge of their performance capabilities without committing a single error in the process. Now put those identical android drivers into two cars of varying capability and allow them to race each other. The android in the fastest car will win every time even though both androids performed at the exact same level. Does that then make the winning android the best android anyway?

This is why it's always the car, and it's quite easy to determine a car's capability by what it enables, because if a car does it, that means the car can do it, because the car did do it.
That's a very good point bhall. Couldn't agree more. I think one of the prime problems in any of these arguments is our inability to get past the fairy-tale dream that its always 70% driver (30% being the car). This perhaps used to be the case in a time and era when cars were inherently more difficult and challenging to drive. Or perhaps this was as much a pipe dream back then when the likes of Senna raced as well, even if I think it's undisputable that the drivers back then were a bigger factor. At the end of the day though - a driver can always only exploit what the car allows him to. Anything above is an impossability by definition.

Given that the cars back in the older days were more difficult to drive - less reliable, less consistant, more erratic and not as glued to the track as they are todays, I would say it was much harder to achive this.

If we use abitrary numbers to put a meaning to it; i would guess that perhaps in the old days, drivers were getting out between 70-80% out of a car, with the rare exception over 80%. Anything significantly higher than that, and you were well within dangerous territory that could get you killed in an instant. This was also the reason why a good driver on his day like Senna in Monaco, could extract significantly more performance out of a car, which shows how the lap times back then varied not by hundreths, or tenths, but up to seconds.

Now days, with the overal more consistent behaviour of the cars, thanks to downforce, reliability, better track surfaces/conditions, help from pitwall, computers (doing complex simulations or supplying data to analyse performance of driver and car) and more safety (less risk), I think drivers are much closer to exploiting that last bit of performance from a car. I would guess that most drivers in todays Formula are much closer to maximizing the full potential, hence why we are seeing team-mates (both identical cars) seperated usually by tenths to hundreths.

Having that said, I think it's clear that this years car are again more difficult to drive than last years, due to less downforce and more unpredictable behaviour of the turbo'ed cars. They're still a far way off the cars that were driven in madness a couple of years back. Also, not every car in a given Formula is as easy to drive as others. I would say some cars are significantly easier to drive (and extract more performance out of as a result) than others. I think this is where Alonso's ability springs to mind when people say that he dragged that F2012 to the last race and nearly won it, compared to the Redbull which is generally considered to have been the most dominant car in the last couple of years. By the same logic, I think this years Mercedes takes that award easily - it must be quite a lot easier to drive and extract that amount of performance than perhaps some of the lesser capable cars this season. An easier car to drive, also makes it easier to extract more performance out of, because it gives you that little bit of more confidence at or close to the limit.

Just my 2 cents worth.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter