Maximising Crankcase Negative Pressure

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Villeneuve_Fan
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Maximising Crankcase Negative Pressure

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The scavenge pumps on an engine remove oil/air mixture from the sump, hence creating a negative pressure. How do manufacturers maximise this negative pressure, outside of pump design?

Are there particular requirements in the oil tank or breathers that can help this?

My understanding is:

* The scavenge pump sucks oil out of the sump and into the oiltank. Therefore there is potential for a low pressure in the sump and a high pressure in the oil tank.

* However the oiltank breathes into the catchtank and is therefore not pressurised.

* Unless additional suction is added, e.g. from a suction pump or harnessing another low pressure, the low pressure in the sump will purely be due to the scavenge pumps.

* If we add a tube that links the oiltank to the sump, it will equalise the two pressures meaning we cannot generate a low pressure in the sump.

All this gives rise to some other points:

* Why would there be a tube running between the oiltank and sump - surely this prevents a low pressure occuring?

* A high pressure in the oiltank may be good because it helps feed the oil pump to the top of the engine?

* If there is a high pressure in the oiltank, the scavenge pumps are having to work against it - therefore is it better to vent the oiltank to a catchtank?

* once the plumbing is optimised, maybe that provides a base from which you can lower the pressure through other means, e.g. using a venturi to create a low pressure by harnessing exhaust or inlet flow, external pump?
Last edited by Villeneuve_Fan on 21 Oct 2014, 12:33, edited 2 times in total.

the_end90
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Re: Maximising Crankcase Negative Pressure

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I think that what could be done is limited to reduce the flow from the combustion chamber using more than one segments on the Piston

J.A.W.
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Re: Maximising Crankcase Negative Pressure

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There are many variables, such as number, configuration & relative displacement of cylinders..
A 360`twin is going to pump more 'windage' than a V12..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

riff_raff
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Re: Maximising Crankcase Negative Pressure

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With a very high rpm race engine that is mounted low in the chassis so that the crank pins and conrods pass very close to the bottom of the oil sump, it is critical to keep the sump as free of oil as possible. And this done by way over-scavenging the sump, which naturally results in lots of air being pulled from the crankcase volume and creating an internal pressure well below ambient. While there is some benefit to having below ambient pressure in the crankcase volume, the most important thing is to remove as much oil mist from the crankcase as possible. This minimizes the hydraulic windage losses created by the crank and conrods passing thru this air/oil mixture.
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J.A.W.
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Re: Maximising Crankcase Negative Pressure

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Not only the oil, but with the air which is being wastefully pumped around under the pistons..
..a meaningful degree of vacuum - can significantly reduce the density/drag there..
..as well as improving piston ring sealing.. ..& pressure induced oil leaks..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

Villeneuve_Fan
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Re: Maximising Crankcase Negative Pressure

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"it is critical to keep the sump as free of oil as possible. And this done by way over-scavenging the sump, which naturally results in lots of air being pulled from the crankcase volume and creating an internal pressure well below ambient."

Presumably most of this over-scavenging is done by the scavenge pumps. Are there any techniques used in addition to the scavenge pumps?

Villeneuve_Fan
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Re: Maximising Crankcase Negative Pressure

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"Not only the oil, but with the air which is being wastefully pumped around under the pistons.."

I wondering if there are ways to help the action of the scavenge pumps - as you say, removing the air.

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Ciro Pabón
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Re: Maximising Crankcase Negative Pressure

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Well, I'm with riff_raff here, he knows. I would add a couple of things to the motives you have for wanting low pressure dry sump system. You can skip this part, because most of us know from memory why you use a dry sump, and go directly to the part where I (intend) to answer the question:

Motives we all know

- A dry sump system allows you to create a flatter oil pan and thus an engine with a lower COG. Since F1 cars are very light and their engine represents a large percentage of weight, any gains in engine height are very important. A lower COG is desirable for suspension and chassis designers.

- Keeping most of the oil in a tank outside the crankcase gives you an oil system that provides a constant flow of oil, as opposed to a system where oil is spilling around.

- A dry sump system main difference is that it uses an tall external tank. This tank gives you hydrostatic pressure giving you a more constant oil pressure. That's probably the main reason to use a dry sump system.

Dry Sump System: the difference with a wet sump is the tank. An F1 system uses another pump at the exit of the tank, this one I took from Formula SAE
Image

- As you imagine from the above image, if you have low pressure in the sump, then pistons are not working against gas at high pressure when descending.

- Oil is not mixing with air (air is a poor lubricant) and it's not that exposed to heat and byproducts of combustion that spill into the crankcase area.

- A constant flow system is by far the most critical part in a durable engine or in its failure and engine duration (failure being obvious) is part of the winning game these days when you are limited in the number of engines and there are penalties for using more.

- A dry sump adds weight and it's not strictly required, like other parts of the car, because it gives you indirect performance which could be achieved by other means, so it has to be very lightweight. A marginal benefit is that you do not need to have a "reserve" of oil sloshing around the engine, you're saving the weight of this extra oil.

Thus, you can notice a couple of things, to...

Answer the question, hopefully

1. You can add negative pressure (suction is more... succinct) by increasing pump suction and by adding oil inlet pressure using a taller tank. In this way you'll get larger suction but it will be more difficult to "suck the engine dry" in the conduits inside the moving parts that lead to the crankcase pan.

2. You can eliminate bubbles of air in the oil so they don't add to the gases in the crankcase. You can make the oil spin when it enters the tank and use baffles to keep it spinning all the way to the bottom and use this centrifugal action and a breathing valve to extract air there.

3. You use a multistage oil pump. These days you have a 5 or 6 stages pump to achieve around 15 cm of Hg.

NASCAR multistage pump
Image

4. You use two more pumps to suck vapors out of both ends of the valve lifter area right under the intake manifold.

4. You use several points in the crankcase pan to suck the oil, usually one under each piston or pair of pistons.

Point of oil suction in an F1 engine
Image

Nascar sump showing four different pans for each pair of cylinders
Image

5. You squirt oil on piston skirts from small nozzles. In this way you extract heat with less oil dripping into the tank and creating oil gas in its fall.

This and the previous image are a courtesy of Steven de Groote at that NICE Formula One site called F1Technical
Image

6. Obviously you don't want air entering the crankcase are from the outside. Thus you use special crankcase end seals with reversed lips.

7. Also obviously you don't use open valve cover breathers.
Ciro

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Maximising Crankcase Negative Pressure

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lucky is the person whose scavenge pump only needs to scavenge the sump
typically we need to scavenge from the camboxes, but we don't know which one (during all this 3g cornering)
so the pumps need to scavenge a lot of air just to remove (mostly frothy) oil ie by entrainment
followed by seperating a lot of air from a lesser amount of oil
thank Mr Duckworth for this

so the 'negative' air pressure is just a side-effect of scavenge eg in modern single-seaters etc
in older systems scavenge pumps were not designed to produce such a pressure because there was no need
and passive or similar breather systems were used to control crankcase pressure

Villeneuve_Fan
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Re: Maximising Crankcase Negative Pressure

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Many thanks Ciro.

"You can eliminate bubbles of air in the oil so they don't add to the gases in the crankcase. You can make the oil spin when it enters the tank and use baffles to keep it spinning all the way to the bottom and use this centrifugal action and a breathing valve to extract air there."

Is anything done to the breathing valve to make it more effective? By 'valve', is this a one-way valve?

Villeneuve_Fan
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Re: Maximising Crankcase Negative Pressure

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Also, presumably you do not want pressure to build up in the oiltank otherwise the scavenge pumps are having to push against this pressure. Therefore the design of the breathers is important?

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Ciro Pabón
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Re: Maximising Crankcase Negative Pressure

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Well, I'm not sure, Villeneuve_fan.

Surely there is in this forum people that knows more than I do, I'm just familiar with the basics: I'm more into circuits than cars.

I'm into the "exact art" of being civil, not mechanical... with a tad of systems, to make matters worse :)
Image

However, I'd guess yes. Actually, the system breather valve is in the crankcase area.

Just in case, here you have the schematics including the pump at the exit of the tank. Notice that the air in the tank is at the same pressure as the gases in the crankcase area. The breather valve connects the crankcase area with the engine exterior, so you use just one valve.

Notice the rebreathing system (just one tube, but I imagine is not that simple) taken from Wikipedia, sorry
Image
Ciro

Villeneuve_Fan
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Re: Maximising Crankcase Negative Pressure

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"Notice the rebreathing system (just one tube, but I imagine is not that simple)"

I see the tube linking the crankcase to oiltank: if we are trying to obtain a negative pressure in the crankcase, why would it be linked to the oiltank?

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Re: Maximising Crankcase Negative Pressure

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"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

gruntguru
gruntguru
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Joined: 21 Feb 2009, 07:43

Re: Maximising Crankcase Negative Pressure

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One important point hinted at but not mentioned so far. Separating air from oil. High speed engines have the tendency to whip the air and oil into a foam. This foam is a terrible lubricant due to being far more compressible than pure oil. Separating the air relies on buoyancy to lift the air bubbles to the surface. The smaller the bubbles - the slower they move - due to surface area (drag) to volume (buoyancy) ratio being much higher for microscopic bubbles.

Reducing the pressure of the foam (vacuuming) increases the size of the bubbles causing them to separate much more rapidly.
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