Why doesn't F1 use Top Fuel style clutches for launch?

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
SidSidney
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Why doesn't F1 use Top Fuel style clutches for launch?

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I was reading about Top Fuel dragster clutches, which are mechanically setup - through the centripetal pre-load on the fingers - to reduce clutch slippage and increase forward drive as RPM increases. Each finger can be weighted and loaded individually to apply pressure at increasing RPM levels, so that the car doesn't just spin it's wheels off the line.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLNOuuY3scU[/youtube]

Now for sure electronic launch control would be more controllable, less agricultural, and probably much more effective; but since it is not allowed, I wonder if these types of clutches have ever been used in F1?
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Jersey Tom
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Re: Why doesn't F1 use Top Fuel style clutches for launch?

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I'd have to think such a thing might not have the best endurance over several hours of racing with lots of slippage... and might be awkward to drive once you've actually gotten off the line and are changing gears frequently.
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Re: Why doesn't F1 use Top Fuel style clutches for launch?

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During a top fuel run some of the plates actually are welding together, so when the run is over and the dragsters roll out they stall the engine, the clutch is replaced each run. So pit stop wise, the clutch would not be very pracitcal :lol:

Just_a_fan
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Re: Why doesn't F1 use Top Fuel style clutches for launch?

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My understanding is that Top Fuel clutches are designed that way as a way to get around the prohibition on launch control and the use of electronic systems.
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Brian Coat
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Re: Why doesn't F1 use Top Fuel style clutches for launch?

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Just_a_fan wrote:My understanding is that Top Fuel clutches are designed that way as a way to get around the prohibition on launch control and the use of electronic systems.
You are right.

Here's some info for anyone interested ...

The clutches themselves are of the same basic type although there are re a few differences

Unlike F1, TF clutch is only used for burnout (as little as possible) and launch; (F1 clutch is used for launch and pit stops)
TF clutch handles 1000s of HP

Unlike F1, TF car is allowed no electronic control, even an open loop controller. The fingers on the clutch are only part of the control. The timers and hydraulic 'cannon' resist the throw out bearing to control the clutch, too.

Unlike F1, TF clutch does not engage until 50% race distance (290 mph), F1 0.01% race distance?

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Shrieker
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Re: Why doesn't F1 use Top Fuel style clutches for launch?

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Brian Coat wrote: These are both great motor sports but they are as different as Sierra Nevada beer and Chateau Paulliac!
And now, please explain which one is which :lol:
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SidSidney
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Re: Why doesn't F1 use Top Fuel style clutches for launch?

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I take all the points. I just wonder if you design a dual clutch system - a starting "dump" clutch, which applies launch power in a mechanism similar to, but obviously not as beefy as the TF system; and a moemntary "running" clutch, which would be used for quick gear changes. Are they mutually exclusive, or could you somehow integrate both in one design?
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autogyro
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Re: Why doesn't F1 use Top Fuel style clutches for launch?

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SidSidney wrote:I take all the points. I just wonder if you design a dual clutch system - a starting "dump" clutch, which applies launch power in a mechanism similar to, but obviously not as beefy as the TF system; and a moemntary "running" clutch, which would be used for quick gear changes. Are they mutually exclusive, or could you somehow integrate both in one design?

A very complex requirement in F1.
One word prevents the use of any form of throw out clutch even if they were allowed by regulations. Weight.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Why doesn't F1 use Top Fuel style clutches for launch?

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SidSidney wrote:I was reading about Top Fuel dragster clutches, which are mechanically setup - through the centripetal pre-load on the fingers - to reduce clutch slippage and increase forward drive as RPM increases. Each finger can be weighted and loaded individually to apply pressure at increasing RPM levels, so that the car doesn't just spin it's wheels off the line.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLNOuuY3scU

Now for sure electronic launch control would be more controllable, less agricultural, and probably much more effective; but since it is not allowed, I wonder if these types of clutches have ever been used in F1?
I like American Ingenuity sometimes. Simple, robust, reliable stuff. I really do think Haas will bring some American Ingenuity despite people making fun of them.
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PhillipM
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Re: Why doesn't F1 use Top Fuel style clutches for launch?

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Weight.
Why bother when the current clutch does the same job for less weight and less moving parts?

Brian Coat
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Re: Why doesn't F1 use Top Fuel style clutches for launch?

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SidSidney said "I just wonder if you design a dual clutch system - a starting "dump" clutch, which applies launch power in a mechanism similar to, but obviously not as beefy as the TF system; and a moemntary "running" clutch, which would be used for quick gear changes. Are they mutually exclusive, or could you somehow integrate both in one design"

F1 clutch is already is a dedicated launch clutch, really.

Remember the clutch is not required for gear changes in F1.

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Ciro Pabón
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Re: Why doesn't F1 use Top Fuel style clutches for launch?

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Sorry for interrupting, but I can think of a few reasons more.

First, you get a thumbs up, Sid (or perhaps thumbs down in Australia?) for a nice thread.

Some other reasons:

A) Size

F1 clutch are under 10 cm of diameter, so the engine is as low as possible for a lower center of gravity.

Actually, clutch size is limited only by crankshaft diameter, which rules state must be 56 mm.

This was before the iPhone 6
Image

Meanwhile TF clutches are huge things. They are so big that they probably race in a separate lane, ha, ha.

They are big because the entire Top Fuel car is monstrous, having 8000 HP... estimated.

Actually, the horsepower of a Top Fuel engine is a mystery. There is no dynamometer in this world that can handle the power output, so any figures you hear are estimates.

This means that the two dragsters in a race deliver as much power as the entire Formula One grid, specially if you take in account Ferrari engines, which according to Alonso deliver 25 watts tops, give or take.

The supercharger so ridiculously massive that it needs 700 f*cking HP to turn: a Mercedes Formula One engine can barely push this thing
Image

On a side note, there is so much work between races that the guy in the previous picture, working on the supercharger drive assembly, believe it or not, is Troy Buff, the driver of the car.

As Felix (hi, Felix!) explains, the clutch plate fuses and has to be reconstructed after every run. There is a guy devoted only to that, sometimes more than one.

Simple, yes. Reliable? Well, if you take in account that you need a slave for it to work, yes. Your Top Fuel mechanic deserves a Sierra Nevada beer six pack! ...after each race
Image

B) Operation

In F1, the clutch rate of release, by rules (yeah, George Orwell was inspired by FIA) must be operated solely by the driver.

If I stand right, some persons are saying that a Formula One clutch is electronically controlled to assist in launching.

Excuse my french, but que est-ce n'est-ce pas non.

The electronic thingamajig is only to prevent the engine from blowing.

We love regulations!
9.2.5 The amount by which the clutch is engaged must be controlled solely and directly by the driver with the exception of blah, blah, blah...
On the other hand, I have the impression that some persons believe that a Top Fuel clutch is controlled by the driver.

The driver controls the timing of the release, but the amount of engagement is the result of a very complicated mechanism (or, as the Americans say, "a simple mechanism").

No, ma'm, it's simpler than a knife fight in a phone booth, bless your pea-pickin' lil' heart!
Image

A TF clutch is automatic and precalibrated. In a pure American style, it cannot be controlled by a computer. It's controlled (cross my heart) by a timer.

Which leads me to the third difference...

C) Timing

A Top Fuel clutch engages fully after 2 seconds.

A F1 clutch engages in nothing. Let's play the 10 differences.

F1 slave cylinder (the thing that moves the clutch) closed.
(courtesy of Scarbs great article on F1 clutchs

Image

Slave cylinder open
Image

Yeah, I know. Total movement? Four millimeters.

A Top Fuel clutch closes the third plate (of the five it has) after 1.5 seconds.

After 2.5 seconds, when the engine uses 400 kilos of fuel per minute (killing several penguins and pandas in the process, rest assured) there are several plates welded, while the car rockets at 400 kph.

One second more and most of the spark plugs have fused, thus the engine is dieseling and the bearings are flat...

Now, if you think that the clutch that delivers that kind of power can be used in F1, well, if you can do it, with mechanic timer and all, it would be like puttin' some pepper in the gumbo.
Ciro

Brian Coat
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Re: Why doesn't F1 use Top Fuel style clutches for launch?

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Ciro and Sid,

Thanks for the info.

Re TF power mystery.

I believe Per and Karsten Andersen have measured the power of their fueler using a non-contact torque sensor from NCTe in Germany.

10,000 hp on a good track IIRC.

Ian King has tested one on his 5 sec Top Fuel bike, too. 'Only' 1400hp :D

gruntguru
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Re: Why doesn't F1 use Top Fuel style clutches for launch?

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Brian Coat wrote:10,000 hp on a good track IIRC.
Wow! It just keeps going up.
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J.A.W.
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Re: Why doesn't F1 use Top Fuel style clutches for launch?

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Yep T-F is an amazing sport/spectacle of rocket fuelled super-developed dinosaur-V8 tech running sacrificially..
.. to produce massive flash-type power through shaft-type transmission transfer..

Benz, Dunlop & Goddard would be impressed, I think..

What could a mad scientist-engineer come up with to best it - if given carte blanch?

A harmonic pulse plasma ignition super-BMEP 2-stroke?
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

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in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).