Ferrari president Sergio Marchionne said that the team embarked on a new journey and he promised to raise the bar of competitiveness even more next year.
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The essential point simply is that all 3 drivers have driven dominant cars as well as pretty poor one's and they've all done something special in them. At the same time, they've driven good cars and have had mediocre seasons. I'm not going to indulge in details because I don't want to debate pages after pages with the end result being a bit nothing. I think we're extremely lucky to see the wealth of talent in terms of drivers in the past ten years. It truly is fascinating.
Not to try to prove your wrong, because I completely agree with you that trying to compare the 3 and figure out who is best is quite a waste of time, but of the 3 drivers Hamilton never really has driven a "pretty poor" car. He never had a season where he did not have atleast one win. The closest you could put near a pretty poor car was his early 2009 car.
I also wouldn't exactly say Alonso is happy at the moment, in general. He'll be utterly delighted with the performance his car brought in Hungary, especially given the prospect on the races after Monza, but I don't think he likes to be in this situation. He'll tuff it out, but battling just to get to Q2 is not going to sit well with any driver that has that many wins and double WDC.
Vettel on the other hand looks extremely happy. Last year he really looked demotivated, but this year he seems to have his mojo back. The fun is back in his driving.
The essential point simply is that all 3 drivers have driven dominant cars as well as pretty poor one's and they've all done something special in them. At the same time, they've driven good cars and have had mediocre seasons. I'm not going to indulge in details because I don't want to debate pages after pages with the end result being a bit nothing. I think we're extremely lucky to see the wealth of talent in terms of drivers in the past ten years. It truly is fascinating.
Not to try to prove your wrong, because I completely agree with you that trying to compare the 3 and figure out who is best is quite a waste of time, but of the 3 drivers Hamilton never really has driven a "pretty poor" car. He never had a season where he did not have atleast one win. The closest you could put near a pretty poor car was his early 2009 car.
I also wouldn't exactly say Alonso is happy at the moment, in general. He'll be utterly delighted with the performance his car brought in Hungary, especially given the prospect on the races after Monza, but I don't think he likes to be in this situation. He'll tuff it out, but battling just to get to Q2 is not going to sit well with any driver that has that many wins and double WDC.
Vettel on the other hand looks extremely happy. Last year he really looked demotivated, but this year he seems to have his mojo back. The fun is back in his driving.
I personally feel Hamilton flattered the 2009 McLaren. I'm not sure of the exact statistics but I think he got a couple of victories and a couple of podiums in 2009. The only relative comparison to him was Heikki Kovalainen who I don't think got onto the podium that season. Again, the true performance of the McLaren is impossible to decipher as only two drivers drove it, but Hamilton made the best of what he had.
To respond to your post about Alonso, I think he knew McLaren would be tough. May be, as you say he's putting on a brave face at the moment and frustration is brewing but he was spent at Ferrari. Trust me, there are a lot of fans that say that Ferrari didn't deserve Alonso and so on but truth is that he didn't have anywhere else to go. (Realistically) I'm a big believer that sport is bigger than teams which in turn is bigger than individuals. At least, in his mind he has a new motivation.
I'm glad you bought the 'motivation' aspect of it in the discussion. I think as fans, we expect drivers to be like robots with a personality in front of the camera. Like you said, in the real world that doesn't happen. Vettel apparently was very disturbed about Schumacher's condition and it affected him. Glad he's re-discovered himself. So many incidents you can point out when it comes to motivation. Very recently, Hulkenberg was beginning to plateau out with his performances but the win in Le Mans and a potential Ferrari seat seems to have ignited something within him, clearly.
Glad I found someone who sees that side of sport. At the end of the day, amongst all the glitz and glamor of a very larger than life sport, these guys are ultimately human, some with very very humble backgrounds.
"Sebastian there's very, you're a member of a very select few.. Stewart, Lauda, Piquet, Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Fangio.. VETTEL!"
I'm glad you bought the 'motivation' aspect of it in the discussion. I think as fans, we expect drivers to be like robots with a personality in front of the camera. Like you said, in the real world that doesn't happen. Vettel apparently was very disturbed about Schumacher's condition and it affected him. Glad he's re-discovered himself. So many incidents you can point out when it comes to motivation. Very recently, Hulkenberg was beginning to plateau out with his performances but the win in Le Mans and a potential Ferrari seat seems to have ignited something within him, clearly.
Perhaps we do think subconsciously that they are robots. I do believe however that drivers with passion "in their eyes" are the most appealing ones to the fans. Ayrton Senna could mobilize an entire country purely through his charisma, his fire.
Motivation is everything for a driver. A low motivation will never inmediately hurt the basic driving, but it'll hit in the finer details. And F1 is a sport about details.
Andres125sx wrote:BTW, with a more competitive team mate Vettel would have lost more points in 2012 with his team mate, and with only 3 points less than he scored Alonso would have won that title
With a better team mate Vettel would have lost all his 4 titles
No, that´d be with a much much much better driver who not only match Vettel but surpass him
Anycase this is a nosense, it all started beacuse of an unfortunate comment by your side talking about Alonso, like if he should be jealous of Vettel situation, and I only posted to show you a fact most people like to ignore, what Vettel is achieving with Ferrari Alonso already did it, even better, in his first season with Ferrari
So no, he shouldn´t be jealous, actually that´s the reason he left Maranello, because they were consistent second class as much and he got tired of fighting for spare victories and second position in WDC. And this remains the same, Ferrari continue as consistent second class, like it or not.
I never meant to say that he should be jealous. We know the Ferrari is better this year but Alonso has pointed that they still finished 20 seconds behind race leader but there is a difference. This car is a much better platform to develop but that is ignored by Alonso fans.
He is in a better place now because Mclaren was fighting for WCC and WDC last year and will start winning races after the summer break.
I agree this whole conversation doesn't make sense we can keep going about it but there is no point in it.
The stat points between an Online Forum and Real Life are inversely proportional...
I've read Fernando's comments about Ferrari, how he doesn't rate Vettel amongst the best F1 drivers, etc. etc. I think, Fernando is a little emotional. He's convinced that he deserved the 2010 and 2012 championships. He was very big on Ferrari, it's brand value and the prestige alone of being able to be part of the history of the Scuderia. He even said it would be his last team, because anywhere else would be a step downward?
Over the years, I've learnt to take Fernando's words with a pinch of salt. He's sometimes a little political with his comments, while sometimes he gets carried away in his emotions. At least, he has a personality and doesn't just shove vanilla PR down our throats. I still remember how enraged he was at Ferrari and Schumacher in 2006. So much so, that even after winning the championship in Brazil he went on team radio to say, 'I wish you the very best, unless the car is red.' At least something on those lines. His rivalry with Schumacher was well documented. Yet, today he recalls it as his best time and Schumacher his greatest rival.
I'm quite sure, once Fernando hangs his helmet, he'll remember his time at the Scuderia fondly. It obviously won't all be rosy, but he really did come into his own in his Ferrari days, easily his best as a driver and he made a lot of fans in the process. His popularity soared. So, I'll give until Fernando hangs his helmet to hear what he has to say about Vettel and Red Bull or Ferrari for that matter. If he still doesn't respect them, it's his problem, I don't think either Ferrari or Vettel would care much.
"Sebastian there's very, you're a member of a very select few.. Stewart, Lauda, Piquet, Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Fangio.. VETTEL!"
Silent Storm wrote:He is in a better place now because Mclaren was fighting for WCC and WDC last year and will start winning races after the summer break.
Silent Storm wrote:He is in a better place now because Mclaren was fighting for WCC and WDC last year and will start winning races after the summer break.
Wait what!?
Think he means Mercedes....
"Leave it to Lewis Hamilton to ruin Redbull's day" - Martin Brundle
"Ok Lewis, Its Hammertime!!" - Peter Bonnington
"Fresh tires, 15 laps. What do you think Lewis Hamilton is going to do?" - Martin Brundle
I just reaized RAI has even less points compared to VET than he had last year vs ALO after the first 10 races. I expected RAI to do a lot better than that, considering that the car suits him this year, unlike last year's car. And VET is new to the team, after all. Even factoring luck/unluck, it's just very poor.
Silent Storm wrote:
Now let's wait to see what Fernando has to say.
Still the same.... "Doesn't want to be in a second best car and that's why left"
J0rd4n wrote:If Vettel wins the championship it will be great to see the face of that arrogant little man who's clearly jealous of Sebastian.
Whatever statements that little man made, he made that statement with clear knowledge in his mind that "Sebastian cannot win a championship again in that Red Car". If he miraculously ends up winning, Bernie is someone who salutes the "Rising Sun" and might just say, "Sebastian is better than Senna !!!"
f1316 wrote:I remember Marchionne described it as "something special" so you imagine it's a decent step, even if, for all we know Mercedes step is bigger.
My friend, aren't you going to assume, "Let's say for SOME REASON, Mercedes doesn't improve".
The changes which Ferrari will bring post the summer break will be very important. Will the changes enhance the Ferrari car's performance in a manner they can challenge or catch up Merc for rest of the season is the key. In my opinion in case chances of further improvement on 2015 car is not possible then they should straightway switch to 2016 right now. They have achieved their goal for 2015 and whatever they do now with the ammunition they will be the second in 2015 comfortably.
Merc has and will upgrade strongly but only if Ferrari looks to be threatening else they will start focussing on 2016 too. The strategy here also needs to be bang on else 2016 will also be a catch up game.
I'm going to try to tip toe a bit with what I am about to say...
First of all, I see it pretty much like Schuttelberg that I feel Alonso is happy to be where he is. He's been long enough at the Scuderia to know how close he's been on at least 2 occasions of winning and falling just a little short, in a car that was much closer to the championship winning car. Even with Vettels two wins with Ferrari so far, he is under no illusion (just as little as Vettel or Ferrari themselves IMO) that while these wins are nice from a PR point of view and good for their image of being on the up rise, they will not be close in either taking the WDC, much less the WCC this year. That Mercedes is just too dominant. They might make things interesting for the rest of the field if their drivers start to bang their heads into each other on track, but realistically, one of them is going to walk it easily, unless reliability rears it's head or there will be some kind of regulation change that will turn things upside down.
I also think the Scuderia is a very special team, a unique one. They have their own ways of how the team is run - and winning with them is probably amongst the most satisfying. Still, I remember back in 2013 when I looked at Alonso's demeanor and felt that that relationship has run its course. Often the driver would be held in higher regard than the car itself, and still it wasn't enough for them to grab a championship. Perhaps it's also true that coming that close, as he did twice, is much bigger loss, than never having a chance.
Right now, he is in exciting new project with McLaren. They might be nowhere and I might be one of the critics who see McLaren in a big hole (they haven't delivered since 2012 and been on the decline), but they still have the money and the talent is there too to find their way back to the top. I also think the change of environment is a good thing for him. Will he ever find himself in contention for a WDC title? I somehow doubt it, unfortunately. Who knows, maybe Honda and McLaren will both deliver, or maybe the headstart that Mercedes and the rest have is just too big to change in the time he will find himself motivated enough to stay in F1.
On to Vettel; I think it's fantastic what he is achieving. I've always rated him highly, especially witnessing some of his qualifying runs in that RedBull. Then again; It always takes a strong team-mate to judge effectively how good someone is. I highly rate Webber, especially in 2010 and parts of 2012, but for probably many reasons, he couldn't take the fight to Seb. Right now, things are working out well for him: And I see Vettel as one of the reasons why Ferrari is doing that well. Not because Alonso wasn't a terrific driver, but perhaps because the new energy Vettel brings into the team (as well as the other changes that were made to the team) have turned things around, given them a new spark. A bit like a fresh and well needed start for the entire team.
Has this made my estimation of him go up? Well, not really. I know he's very talented, but the only measure we have of a driver is when compared directly to his team-mate. I don't rate Hamilton highly because of the championships he's won; I rate him highly especially because of how he raced and performed against Alonso in that rookie year of 2007. Everything that he has shown so far, has IMO added to that impression. Vettel in that sense is a hard one to figure: On one hand, he is undoubtedly extremely talented and quick, but Kimi is not that yardstick for me unfortunately. Not after being utterly demolished by Alonso the year before and being nigh on neck at neck with Massa during his earlier years at Ferrari. If anything, my estimation of Kimi has gone down a lot. It would be great if Ferrari took the plunge and signed someone with real potential; not a number 2 driver, but someone who shows promise to being quick. Not sure that is Bottas (as I have commented on in the silly season topic).
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II #Team44 supporter
Schuttelberg wrote:I've read Fernando's comments about Ferrari, how he doesn't rate Vettel amongst the best F1 drivers, etc. etc. I think, Fernando is a little emotional. He's convinced that he deserved the 2010 and 2012 championships. He was very big on Ferrari, it's brand value and the prestige alone of being able to be part of the history of the Scuderia. He even said it would be his last team, because anywhere else would be a step downward?
Over the years, I've learnt to take Fernando's words with a pinch of salt. He's sometimes a little political with his comments, while sometimes he gets carried away in his emotions. At least, he has a personality and doesn't just shove vanilla PR down our throats. I still remember how enraged he was at Ferrari and Schumacher in 2006. So much so, that even after winning the championship in Brazil he went on team radio to say, 'I wish you the very best, unless the car is red.' At least something on those lines. His rivalry with Schumacher was well documented. Yet, today he recalls it as his best time and Schumacher his greatest rival.
I'm quite sure, once Fernando hangs his helmet, he'll remember his time at the Scuderia fondly. It obviously won't all be rosy, but he really did come into his own in his Ferrari days, easily his best as a driver and he made a lot of fans in the process. His popularity soared. So, I'll give until Fernando hangs his helmet to hear what he has to say about Vettel and Red Bull or Ferrari for that matter. If he still doesn't respect them, it's his problem, I don't think either Ferrari or Vettel would care much.
During his Renault years he was a truly *sshole, speaking sh*t about Ferrari and Michael all the time. Now he is more mature but he is still very impulsive saying sometimes things he should not say. Ferrari is bigger than him and he will be rapidly forgotten because of his attitude and because he didnt win a championship, even if he deserved one or two.
Schuttelberg wrote:I've read Fernando's comments about Ferrari, how he doesn't rate Vettel amongst the best F1 drivers, etc. etc. I think, Fernando is a little emotional. He's convinced that he deserved the 2010 and 2012 championships. He was very big on Ferrari, it's brand value and the prestige alone of being able to be part of the history of the Scuderia. He even said it would be his last team, because anywhere else would be a step downward?
Over the years, I've learnt to take Fernando's words with a pinch of salt. He's sometimes a little political with his comments, while sometimes he gets carried away in his emotions. At least, he has a personality and doesn't just shove vanilla PR down our throats. I still remember how enraged he was at Ferrari and Schumacher in 2006. So much so, that even after winning the championship in Brazil he went on team radio to say, 'I wish you the very best, unless the car is red.' At least something on those lines. His rivalry with Schumacher was well documented. Yet, today he recalls it as his best time and Schumacher his greatest rival.
I'm quite sure, once Fernando hangs his helmet, he'll remember his time at the Scuderia fondly. It obviously won't all be rosy, but he really did come into his own in his Ferrari days, easily his best as a driver and he made a lot of fans in the process. His popularity soared. So, I'll give until Fernando hangs his helmet to hear what he has to say about Vettel and Red Bull or Ferrari for that matter. If he still doesn't respect them, it's his problem, I don't think either Ferrari or Vettel would care much.
During his Renault years he was a truly *sshole, speaking sh*t about Ferrari and Michael all the time. Now he is more mature but he is still very impulsive saying sometimes things he should not say. Ferrari is bigger than him and he will be rapidly forgotten because of his attitude and because he didnt win a championship, even if he deserved one or two.
To be honest, I think sport needs such characters. F1, in particular. There's a lot of nostalgia all the time surrounding our sport and a lot of it is just glorifying the past without actually appreciating the present which isn't too different from the past. But, if one aspect of the sport has changed immensely for me, it's the drivers personality. They all seem extremely restricted and honestly, sometimes I can actually quote the driver quotes after a race. It's robotic, bland and there's not much honesty which I really dislike. I mean, would Senna be such a monumental hero of our sport for whom we cheered so passionately without the antics of Prost? I don't think Prost was any less of a driver at the time, but they were just two different characters.
Secondly, I don't think Alonso can every be forgotten. I genuinely believe, that winning WDC is a lot lot down to circumstances and not just hard work. If anything, Alonso not winning in 2012 will be remembered immensely because of him not winning. A lot like Schumacher, 1998 which his fans like me, rate as his best year in sport.
All in all, I'll remember Fernando as an amazing driver, easily one with the best spatial awareness when racing wheel to wheel (all time). I'll also remember him for his fiery attitude and that absolute conviction that he must win and if he doesn't then there's something wrong with the world. Has he matured? I think, that's one thing Fernando can't claim. He may have mellowed down a tad, but he can be pretty childish sometimes. And as I said, that human side of it is what makes sport fun!
"Sebastian there's very, you're a member of a very select few.. Stewart, Lauda, Piquet, Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Fangio.. VETTEL!"
ChrisF1 wrote:With comparisons, I think it is best to compare Vettel with the first Ferrari-Schumacher season. Let's compare the situation going into 1996 and 2015.
1996 - dominant Williams with 2 drivers taking most wins. Ferrari hadn't won the title in years, but had a few near misses and had spent the past 4 years running around as the 2nd-4th best car every weekend.
2015 - dominant Mercedes with 2 drivers taking most wins. Ferrari hadn't won the title in years, but had a few near misses and had spent the past 4 years running around as the 2nd-4th best car every weekend.
So here we are, lets look at the situation at half way point.
1996 - dominant Williams is class of the field, and Williams had won all but two races. Schumacher had managed to win one race.
2015 - dominant Mercedes is class of the field, and they had won all but two races. Vettel has managed to win two races.
Exactly the same as when Alonso joined Ferrari
2010- dominant Red Bull is class of the filed, and they had won all but two races. Alonso had managed to win two races (mid season, five victories at the end of the season)
And we all know how that ended...
That comparison with Schumacher era was also done with Alonso. I never liked it, different eras, different cars, different rules, different drivers.... it´s absurd
